Arsenal Stamps.

[John C]

20 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Dawson covers these extensively on pages 90, 98, and 99

Ah. Please forgive my ignorance. I don't own Dawson or F&G but should have asked about that first. No need to duplicate what's already out there.

John C.

[vajo]

Something for your collection Bruce.

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, vajo said:

for your collectio

Thanks Chris!  Mark of Amahide's forge/factory.  Do you have the mei or smith on the blade?  There were 3 or 4 smiths working the factory and it's found on all of them.

[vajo]

Sorry no Bruce. The condition was so bad,  i had no further interest on looking at it.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting Type 95 posted on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.  It's a Tokyo 1st 95 with a poorly stamped Ijima shop stamp.  The fuchi SEEMS to be steel, but I remember @Kiipu mentioning that the Tokyo arsenal didn't stamp steel fuchi.  The close-up might show that the fuchi is actually brass/copper and was painted black.  What do you guys think

[Kiipu]

Correct, the ferrule is made of copper or copper-alloy that is painted black.  This painting of the ferrule shows up toward the end of Iijima production.

 

So as to give credit where credit is due, it was Stegel that brought this to my attention earlier this year.

[Bruce Pennington]

Quote

 

Thanks Thomas.  I suspected the stamp was too deep to be on a steel fuchi.  Just never ran into such a set up before.  

 

Still learning!

[Bruce Pennington]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:14 PM, IJASWORDS said:

Bruce, very small star stamp on a '98 tsuba. Any thoughts? 

Found another one on this seppa on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.  Interesting that it's "73"!!!  It's on a NA stamped 1943 Kaneyoshi.  Do you recall what yours is on Neil?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Unsure if this has been noted: https://page.auction.../auction/v1099320237

 

"EP"

 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

noted

Never seen it before John! Thanks for posting it. I will add that to the “unknown” section.

[Kiipu]

Roll call, calling Bruce Pennington!  Shake a leg and start recording. [Hint, look at the bottom of the nakago.]

Type3 GUNTO Signed strong blade, Iron Scabbard, WW2 Original Japanese Army Sword

 

Edit: Aichi Prefecture RJT blade for sure.  The star stamps are very shallow on these and it is probably somewhere under the rust.

三州住筒井清兼作  = Sanshū jū Tsutsui Kiyokane saku.

@mecox

[Bruce Pennington]

Dang! Another number out of order! I have a Kiyokane with the number 115 from May 1944. So this February 1944 “207“ is out of order.  They don’t show a star, but it is in fittings with the double release button, so I suspect it probably has one. Maybe I can ask the seller about it.

[mecox]

Right on Thomas, Tsutsui Kiyokane a RJT from Aichi/Mikawa/Sanshu:  

 

[Kiipu]

Aichi Prefecture 愛知縣 RJT Type 100s, sideways serial number, either a ☆ stamp or sometimes a small 名 stamp.

１１５　1944-02　 ☆ 三州住筒井清兼作 Sanshū jū Tsutsui Kiyokane saku.

１１８　1944-03　☆ 竹内兼光 Takeuchi Kanemitsu.

２０７　1944-02　三州住筒井清兼作 Sanshū jū Tsutsui Kiyokane saku.

２４７　☆ 1944-08　尾州住竹内兼光 Bishū jū Takeuchi Kanemitsu saku.

２？４　1944-09　尾州住竹内兼光作 Bishū jū Takeuchi Kanemitsu saku [small NA stamp, the middle digit in the serial number was drilled out when fitted].

[Tensho]

I asked seller when this first popped up about a star stamp. He said there are no stamps? 

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Aichi Prefecture 愛知縣 RJT Type 100s, sideways serial number, either a ☆ stamp or sometimes a small 名 stamp.

１１５　1944-02　 ☆ 三州住筒井清兼作 Sanshū jū Tsutsui Kiyokane saku.

１１８　1944-03　☆ 竹内兼光 Takeuchi Kanemitsu.

２０７　1944-02　三州住筒井清兼作 Sanshū jū Tsutsui Kiyokane saku.

２４７　☆ 1944-08　尾州住竹内兼光 Bishū jū Takeuchi Kanemitsu saku.

２？４　1944-09　尾州住竹内兼光作 Bishū jū Takeuchi Kanemitsu saku [small NA stamp, the middle digit in the serial number was drilled out when fitted].

I like the idea of grouping them by prefecture!  

 

Can we double check the 115 Feb '44 Kiyokane, though?  I have that down as May '44, here's pics:

[Kiipu]

The source picture shows a 二 with surrounding stains.

Star Stamped Tsutsui Kiyokane Blade

[Bruce Pennington]

21 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

The source picture shows a 二 with surrounding stains.

Star Stamped Tsutsui Kiyokane Blade

Thanks Thomas, that cleared that up.  My photos were too blurry, but the original shows the scattered stains and the kanji cuts more clearly.

 

So, now, if we just looked at the numbering by smith, it would make it appear they were making over 100 blades per month.  But when you group them by prefecture, it opens the door to a more reasonable number, per smith, like George said.

[Kiipu]

A Takayama sword with a stamped number of 225 [シリアル№225の刻印] on the nakago.

Swordsmith 刀匠: Ishihara Masanao 石原正直.

Polisher 研師: Ōya Michio 大矢道雄.

https://web.archive....hayate/62412699.html

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

: Ishihara Masanao 石原正直.

Good find, Thomas!  The google translate on the page says they are calling it a Masayoshi, but it is clearly Masanao.  It is the first Masanao I have on file with a stamped number.  Too bad it's not dated.

 

Interesting discussion in the 'Comments' section:

"It is registered because it is a historically valuable material. The current situation is that this area is decided by the chest tip of the registration examiner (often the head of the Hitoho branch) entrusted to each prefecture. The Ministry of Education, Culture→sports Japan Agency for Cultural Affairs has maintained its stance that swords are works of art, but the National Police Agency → police stations have maintained their stance that they are subject to the crackdown on guns and swords laws.
2011/1/6(Thu) 8:43 AM [ Myochin ]

Myochin:

Probably, the bereaved family brought it as a memento and registered it.
It is decided at the discretion of the registration examiner.
The police are only one of the procedures to receive the discovery report and send it to the registration examination board, so it has nothing to do with the registration of the sword. Even if you bring a sword that cannot be registered, it will not be subject to crackdown. Please be assured that it is an organization that performs administrative procedures for discovery notification.
2011/1/7(Fri) 6:50 AM Bushu Kawagoe"

[Bruce Pennington]

The blades with stamped numbers are predominantly made by RJT qualified smiths.  There are a few, though, that are not RJT, but not many.  I see an RJT Masanao, but it's listd as "Nozawa Masanao."  Sesko lists 3 Showa era Masanao, one of them RJT, but he doesn't describe him as Nozawa.  @mecox - Mal - got anything on this guy?

[John C]

Bruce: You mentioned that most of the numbered blades were from RJT smiths. There is an interesting excerpt from one of Omhura-san's notes about the stamped numbers.

 

"Major Oto, who supervised the production of military swords as the manager of the Nagoya Army Arsenal Sekibu Factory, described the blades made by swordsmiths in accordance with the official standards as "Army-style modern forging swords" in his memoirs. It is possible that this "formal modern forged sword" was the official name of the military.　The sword blade stems delivered to this armory are: (1) Those with only a "star" mark that has passed the Army Material Inspection (2) A "star" and a number stamp on the stem butt (3) A "star" and an inspection mark on the stem building (4) There are various types such as those with a "star" and a small "sekiin". Items made before the designation of a swordsmith or items sold directly without delivery to the armory due to special circumstances even during the period of swordsmithing will not be marked with these inspection seals, number stamps, etc. A sword that does not have the date of manufacture cut on the back of the stem is not a sword that has been once delivered to the armory, even if it is a standard sword of the swordsmith. In addition, "non-standard swords" that greatly deviated from the tolerance range of the dimensional standards indicated by the specifications and drawings, such as being important, deeply warped, or too heavy, were not delivered to the armory, but were sold directly to sword dealers and officers. Of course, these are not stamped with stars or numbers."  

 

John C.

[John C]

Bruce:

Just saw this on another thread. Stamped numbers 898 or 868.

 

John C.

[mecox]

Bruce:  I have not seen a Nozawa Masanao.  Maybe the "Nozawa" is an error of some type??

The one I have making Takayama-to is:  

Masanao, Ishihara (正直 石原) MAS 662 (1963) He appears to have worked mostly at Takayama forge and was active in production of numerous stainless steel kaigunto; most have an anchor/circle stamp. Not clear if he is related to Ishihara Kanenao; there is also a togishi Ishihara Takamitsu. Masanao is not in the Seki tosho list. There is a post-war Masanao.

Sesko has these two:  

“Masanao” (正直), Aomori, family name Takahashi (高橋), rikugun jumei-tōshō

Masanao (正直),  Gifu – “Minamoto Masanao kore o saku” (源正直作之), real name Tanaka Katsuo (田中勝郎), born 1943, son of Tanaka Kanehide (兼秀).

NOTE TYPO ERROR:   

Tanaka Katsuo (田中勝郎)  this should be NAKATA KATSURO    中田  勝郎   who was born in 1943 and is the son of NAKATA KANEHIDE who is listed as a RJT and shown in Slough p 41-42.

There is a Nozawa:  YASUYUKI (康行), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Yasuyuki” (康行), real name Nozawa Yoshiyasu (野沢美安).

The sword listed by Thomas:

A Takayama sword with a stamped number of 225 [シリアル№225の刻印] on the nakago.   Swordsmith 刀匠: Ishihara Masanao 石原正直.   Polisher 研師: Ōya Michio 大矢道雄.  Looks to be a typical earlier Takayama-to with artificial suguha hamon, short thick kissaki and scalloped edge habaki. 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce: You mentioned that most of the numbered blades were from RJT smiths. There is an interesting excerpt from one of Omhura-san's notes about the stamped numbers.

 

"Major Oto, who supervised the production of military swords as the manager of the Nagoya Army Arsenal Sekibu Factory, described the blades made by swordsmiths in accordance with the official standards as "Army-style modern forging swords" in his memoirs. It is possible that this "formal modern forged sword" was the official name of the military.　The sword blade stems delivered to this armory are: (1) Those with only a "star" mark that has passed the Army Material Inspection (2) A "star" and a number stamp on the stem butt (3) A "star" and an inspection mark on the stem building (4) There are various types such as those with a "star" and a small "sekiin". Items made before the designation of a swordsmith or items sold directly without delivery to the armory due to special circumstances even during the period of swordsmithing will not be marked with these inspection seals, number stamps, etc. A sword that does not have the date of manufacture cut on the back of the stem is not a sword that has been once delivered to the armory, even if it is a standard sword of the swordsmith. In addition, "non-standard swords" that greatly deviated from the tolerance range of the dimensional standards indicated by the specifications and drawings, such as being important, deeply warped, or too heavy, were not delivered to the armory, but were sold directly to sword dealers and officers. Of course, these are not stamped with stars or numbers."  

 

John C.

John,

That quote hits home in a few areas!  It's interesting that RJT, star, blades were "delivered to this (Nagoya) armory"!!!  I don't have any of the star blades on file (over 60) in kaigunto fittings.  Secondly, the quote supports my thought that the stamped numbers, at least on RJT blades, were applied by the army, not by fitters.  Third item of interest is the confirmation that unstamped blades by RJT qualified smiths were "sold directly" to the market and not delivered to the arsenal.

 

Thanks for that!

10 hours ago, mecox said:

Ishihara Masanao 石原正直.

Thanks for looking into that, Mal.  I think you're right about the name on the RJT list being an error.  The JSI oshigata page has Ishihara Masanao, but no other.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, John C said:

898 or 868.

Thanks John!  Didn't have that one.  It should be read as 898.  1942, and first half of '43, blade numbers were stamped with the cutting edge down.

[mecox]

Bruce Pennington & others:  there is a error in my post (3 above) about Seki Masanao that I copied from Sesko e-list.   This was pointed out to me by Jcstroud. 

Presumably it is a late night typo by Markus (who listed 1000's of tosho!).

The listed is:  "MASANAO (正直),  Gifu, real name Tanaka Katsuo (田中勝郎), born 1943, son of Tanaka Kanehide (兼秀)"   but the Tanaka Katsuo (田中勝郎)  should be

NAKATA KATSURO    中田  勝郎.

Also his father Nakata Kanehide is listed as a RJT and shown in Slough p 41-42.   More info on father and son in this paper on Toki family:

 

 

[John C]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Third item of interest is the confirmation that unstamped blades by RJT qualified smiths were "sold directly" to the market and not delivered to the arsenal.

I too find this interesting. It could mean there are gendaito blades out there without the tell-tale marks. Could explain why some blades have the "gendaito" look but may be labeled as gimei. 

John C.

[Kiipu]

On 8/1/2023 at 5:47 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Good find, Thomas!

 

Found the current webpage with better pictures.

高山刀

[Conway S]

Greetings, 

 

Has anyone identified this stamp? It's on an Inaba marked Kai Guntō. Thanks. 

 

Conway 

On 4/26/2023 at 11:50 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Just found one on file that shows the strokes the best: