Arsenal Stamps.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

proposing the mark is an inspector mark of the Tenshzan shop.  Maybe this mark was being used by Tenshozan's own inspectors

That's only my assumption. We can also ask  @KiipuThomas and see what his thought is.

PS: The anchor marks of 天照山鍛練場 Tenshozan Forge and 豐川海軍工廠 Toyokawa Naval Arsenal are different. If the "Ka" mark indicates 鎌倉 Kamakura, it is not clear why it is found on swords made at the Toyokawa factory. Therefore, more evidence is needed.

[Jcstroud]

What coild explain all of this is Zenhiro Hattori was said to be the owner of Tenshozan Tanrenjo  he also had forges in Osaka,Mishima City ,and ties to Seki city,Takayama forge,and inaba forge.He had established a large network of forges and stores .Some of these forges as you all know had resident Naval inspectors such as the Hattori forge in Osaka.It is no wonder how they could produce 8747 Souvenirs from November 6th 1945 and finish production by March of 1947 .it is said his son inlaw Eiji was instumental in saving many swords after the wars end. This probably explains why there are so many different stamps and as a result the swords were used as surplus. The Hattori Connection.And after all that where were they sold?  The Hattori Building. Hmmmmm.

[Jcstroud]

After all this you gotta do what ya gotta do

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Zenhiro Hattori was said to be the owner of Tenshozan Tanrenjo  he also had forges in Osaka,Mishima City ,and ties to Seki city,Takayama forge,and inaba forge

Wow!  This could be something, as we are already leaning to the Inaba forge being the source of one of the marks.  Now if we could just tie the mustache stamp to the Takayama forge!!!

[Jcstroud]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Wow!  This could be something, as we are already leaning to the Inaba forge being the source of one of the marks.  Now if we could just tie the mustache stamp to the Takayama forge!!!

If my sources are correct the " mustache" stamp is called the Yamagata stamp it signifies War Department Property found it amongst your colleages posts  here on NMB this anchor stamp as you know is a Tenshozan Tanrenjo stamp used on upper level Kaigunto

[BANGBANGSAN]

19 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

The Hattori Connection.And after all that where were they sold?  The Hattori Building. Hmmmmm.

The Hattori building is not connected to Zenhiro Hattori.It was belongs to 服部金太郎， the founder of Seiko watch.

[Jcstroud]

Ok maybe yes maybe no but on August 25th through the 30th  of1942 the Matsuya Department store had a Gunto Summer sale that had fittings and Swords on sale. Hideki tojo Ministry of the Army ,the Osaka Sword Club,The Japanese Sword Newspaper all Hosted the Event displaying the latest external specifications aka Rinji Seishinki  this info came from the late and highly respected Nick Komiya. With all due respect.seems  unlikely they did not know each other since they both had shops Tokyo and Osaka not to mention others.    Small world no?

[Jcstroud]

Pardon but I think we took a wrong turn in Albakerque?!@$%% back to the stamps.😊

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

this anchor stamp as you know is a Tenshozan Tanrenjo stamp

John,

You just earned a big bonus check in your NMB pay this year!  I actually had never considered this as a Tenshozan inspector stamp!  It lacks the stereotypical side chevrons.  But after going through my files, I have found 3 or 4 other stamps with varying degrees of missing chevrons, due to poor stamping.  So, you nainled it on this one - it's a Tenshozan stamp.  As to the mustache being a yamagata, government property, it's an idea.  Not sure I buy it, though.  There's a lot easier ways to stamp an "M".   

 

On the Toyokawa + 1, though, I forgot we have another one.  It's a "Ha":

[BANGBANGSAN]

19 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

seems  unlikely they did not know each other since they both had shops Tokyo and Osaka not to mention others.   

John

I agree with you that they likely know each other. What I mean is, don't mistake Kinsaburo Hattori's building for Zenhiro Hattori's shop, just because both of them have the surname Hattori 服部。

[Jcstroud]

6 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

John

I agree with you that they likely know each other. What I mean is, don't mistake Kinsaburo Hattori's building for Zenhiro Hattori's shop, just because both of them have the surname Hattori 服部。

Not to worry I know that Kintaro Hattori was the owner of the building it was conjecture on my part that the two were connected contractually it only seemed very possible that the two were related or perhaps members of the same sword club due to the fact that very shortly after the take over of the Hattori Building by the 8th Army regiment Tenshozan cut a  contract for the souvenir swords that was 2 months quite a coincidence that Kintaro and Zenhiro Hattori 's businesses coincided in the same place that is all I am saying with all due respect.  Please forgive if I seem to be confrontational not intended I am very grateful for all the help and support you all have given me you have a friend here..

Guaranteed.      John

[BANGBANGSAN]

13 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

 Please forgive if I seem to be confrontational

John, don't worry, I don't feel like you're being confrontational. I just think there are some confusing aspects of Japanese, such as the same pronunciation being able to correspond to different Kanji, or the same Kanji having different pronunciations in different combinations. Additionally, when swordsmiths share the same name, it can be a headache. We're all still learning

[Bruce Pennington]

You guys got me won if the "HA" stamp is from the name Hattori.  But probably not if that name is "Hot - tori".

[Jcstroud]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

You guys got me won if the "HA" stamp is from the name Hattori.  But probably not if that name is "Hot - tori".

Now That is what you call a HOT STAMP  

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington have you seen these small circle stamps before or are they just zeros stamped in (0904)

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

54 minutes ago, John C said:

just zeros stamped in (0904)

Yes, I've seen zeros stamped with a round circle.  Can't think of examples, but I've seen it.

[vajo]

Facebook found.

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

17 minutes ago, vajo said:

Facebook found.

Cool find, Chris!  Do you think the circled cross is the logo/trademark?

[vajo]

Yes, i found it. 

 

 

[vajo]

This is a chinese dagger? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I’d say so, judging by the flags and the plum blossom. But I’m no Chinese expert!

[John C]

The original label noted they had offices in Dairen (Manchuria) and Berlin, among other places. An export company perhaps?

John C

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 5/25/2023 at 3:26 AM, vajo said:

Facebook found.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

乾電池=Dry Cell

[vajo]

Haha cool Trystan.

So it is fake?

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

I just acquired a standard naval dirk that has what I believe to be the Nakano Shoten mark (page 44 of the stamps doc) on the guard. But there is a slightly different mark listed on page 9 of the stamps doc from Fuller that indicates it is also found on naval dirks. Could they be the same mark? Under a loupe, mine looks like more like the Nakano Shoten listed on page 44. 

Just curious.

John C.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

Bruce:

I was reading a thread about the four main shops that supplied to the Suikosha navy officer uniform outfitters (Suya, Kobe, Nakano, and Matsuura). Interested in the suppliers, I was looking for the Matsuura mark. So in reading the stamps doc, I noticed a stamp for "Matsu", however no specific stamp for the Matsuura shop. Could they be one and the same?

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, John C said:

Matsuura

Interesting.  Well, it at least gives us a possibility to watch for.  Interesting group of 4 shops you found there!  If we ever find out that Matsuura made sword fittings, it would shake up my theory on the Matsu + stamped number being an Army tracking system, and lay it back into the 'fittings shops' arena.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 6/2/2023 at 5:02 PM, John C said:

Could they be the same mark?

I think they are, John.  I would bet a month's pay that the mark Fuller saw, and referenced, was simply partially struck, missing the left vertical side of the box.

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

I saw these marks on a Meiji period artillery sword. Would you want to expand the Stamp doc to include items like this and marks on bayonets or just focus on Gunto?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

Dawson covers these extensively on pages 90, 98, and 99.  He's actually got this exact one in his collection!  I could see adding this example with a description on how to decipher them to the Stamps doc (have to figure out a good spot for it).  Dawson has 10 examples on those 3 pages.  I wouldn't see the point in having more than 1 for our purposes.  He says the small stamps at the bottom are inspector stamps.  I've shied away from most pre-WWII stamps simply because there are many and we have no documentation to identify them by.

 

As to bayonets, it's an area I have no interest in.  I'm vaguely aware that there are reference books on them from discussions on Gunboards and other forums.  If you would like to draw up a page that covers the bayonet stamps and send it to me, PM or email, we could consider it.