Arsenal Stamps.

[Jcstroud]

You will also find this mark on pg 91 of 104 in Malcolm's Japanese Naval  Swords pdf part2 by the same Inaname Kanenami . I guess it must be koshirai shop trademark I am assuming  both toshos share the same marks  likely Toyokawa inspection marks?

[Bruce Pennington]

There is a moderate discussion of this on this thread:  Help on Translating Nakago Mei.

 

Back then, I had found an online page for the Inaba Tanrenjo, and I tossed that around with Mal Cox a bit.  But inconclusive.  If the mark is of a forge, as opposed to a personal mark of Kaneyoshi, then the other marks posted in that discussion (an in the Stamps Doc) are by implication, forge marks too.  

 

[Jcstroud]

So far the 4mm anchor  stamps that I have found on souvenir swords were from Takayama forge  e.g. Masahiro Masanao ,Kanenao,Man of Nara....Was Takayama a prison forge or was this a myth?

[Jcstroud]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

There is a moderate discussion of this on this thread:  Help on Translating Nakago Mei.

 

Back then, I had found an online page for the Inaba Tanrenjo, and I tossed that around with Mal Cox a bit.  But inconclusive.  If the mark is of a forge, as opposed to a personal mark of Kaneyoshi, then the other marks posted in that discussion (an in the Stamps Doc) are by implication, forge marks too.  

 

An interesting  note :    the kanji at the Inaba shrine seems to be a match. Very close to Gifu Castle also called Inabayama castle.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Masahiro Masanao ,Kanenao,Man of Nara....Was Takayama a prison forge or was this a myth?

John,

Here is an NMB search of Prison Forge.  You will find both the Takayama Naval Prison forge and the Okayama prison forge (where Emura worked) discussed.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

 the kanji at the Inaba shrine seems to be a match

John, can you post a pic of what you found?  I can't find a photo with that character.  Or are you just referring to the name - 伊奈波神社?

[Jcstroud]

You can google the Inaba shrine but the photos are copyrighted.checkitout!

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

You can google the Inaba shrine but the photos are copyrighted.checkitout!

I did Google the shrine and got hundreds of photos, but saw no kanji on the shrine.  That’s why I asked if the kanji you are referring to is simply in the written name - 伊奈波神社.  If not, maybe you could show a photo of the image you are seeing. Thanks.

[Jcstroud]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John, can you post a pic of what you found?  I can't find a photo with that character.  Or are you just referring to the name - 伊奈波神社?

Here you go.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, very similar, so I doubt it's coincidence.  Yet noticeably different, different enough to give the translation guys fits.  With kanji, every stroke counts, including the direction of a stroke.  You can see in the photo how the two are different.  Considering the fact we have not found the mark on other smith's work, it's hard to think of it as a forge logo.  But personal marks are usually at the end of mei, not up top with arsenal inspector marks.  So, it's a mystery for now.

 

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Yes, very similar, so I doubt it's coincidence.  Yet noticeably different, different enough to give the translation guys fits.  With kanji, every stroke counts, including the direction of a stroke.  You can see in the photo how the two are different.  Considering the fact we have not found the mark on other smith's work, it's hard to think of it as a forge logo.  But personal marks are usually at the end of mei, not up top with arsenal inspector marks.  So, it's a mystery for now.

 

Question if you were to find the same symbol written in pencil on the wood end of the tsuka under the fuchi what would be the significance.???

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

significance

The first option is that the mark is like all other fitter/assembly markings, put there by whomever marks blades and fittings to keep them together.  That is what we assume in almost all other cases.  However, my hesitancy comes from knowing there are known cases of fitters using marks already on blades to mark the fittings with.  For example, I have Mantetsu on file where the fitters used the serial number on the fittings, while other Mantetsu have painted numbers added that match the fittings.  Additionally, there are RJT blades with stamped numbers that, I believe, were there before the fitters got hold of the blade and used the stamped number for their fittings, versus RJT blades, with stamped numbers, that have different painted numbers that match the fittings.

 

I don't know if I explained that well.  But to me, it could be either way with these additional marks on Toyokawa blades.  But the fact that the Inaba-like stamp is only found on  Inaba blades speaks to me of something other than a fittings mark, and the fitters simply used the mark that was already there to mark their parts.  

 

I definitely could be wrong.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The first option is that the mark is like all other fitter/assembly markings, put there by whomever marks blades and fittings to keep them together.  That is what we assume in almost all other cases.  However, my hesitancy comes from knowing there are known cases of fitters using marks already on blades to mark the fittings with.  For example, I have Mantetsu on file where the fitters used the serial number on the fittings, while other Mantetsu have painted numbers added that match the fittings.  Additionally, there are RJT blades with stamped numbers that, I believe, were there before the fitters got hold of the blade and used the stamped number for their fittings, versus RJT blades, with stamped numbers, that have different painted numbers that match the fittings.

 

I don't know if I explained that well.  But to me, it could be either way with these additional marks on Toyokawa blades.  But the fact that the Inaba-like stamp is only found on  Inaba blades speaks to me of something other than a fittings mark, and the fitters simply used the mark that was already there to mark their parts.  

 

I definitely could be wrong.

What is strange is I found this same symbol on my Toyosuke tsuba.

[Jcstroud]

Could that mean Toyosuke was a assistant to Inaba Kaneyoshi.? Working at the inaba shrine ? It seems i have left no stone unturned your patience with me and all my           unanswerable  questions deserves at the very least an honorable  mention.  Thank you all.      John

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Could that mean Toyosuke was a assistant to Inaba Kaneyoshi.? Working at the inaba shrine ?

That is a question best presented to guys like @mecox and @george trotter

 

But, the fact that you've found the mark on a Toyosuke tsuba (sorry, don't remember if you've already shown that to me!  Can you post for my files?) actually supports the idea of it being a shop logo.  There are many tsuba in the files with various shop logo stamped on them. Hmmmm..... shop logo???? Interesting.  This points back to my question about the Inaba Tanrenjo.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just found one on file that shows the strokes the best:

[Jcstroud]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:37 PM, Jcstroud said:

Hey Bruce we might have something here...the above photo of the stainless nakabo the mark below the 4mm anchor stamp has the same symbol as the wood end on the tsuka  of Toyosuke #45 !

The marks are in pencil and are very faint this is the drawing in my notes showing the locations .they are very similar but seemingly inconclusive but no other ninben kanji comes close.except the ninben for tsuka.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

The marks are in pencil and are very faint this is the drawing in my notes showing the locations .they are very similar but seemingly inconclusive but no other ninben kanji comes close.except the ninben for tsuka.

John,

Sorry, I've been chasing too many rabbits lately, both here and at home.  I'm catching up with you a bit.  Posting your notes vertically:

 

I looked back over your original posts and don't see a photo of these markings on the tsuka.  Can you post for us?  Also, the photo of all the seppa is too blurry to see the markings, can we get a good clear shot of them too?

 

So there are 3 markings on the tsuka? "HO" "2" and the logo?  

 

And the notes at the bottom - they aren't from writing on the souvenir, are they?  Are they just your research notes?

[Jcstroud]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John,

Sorry, I've been chasing too many rabbits lately, both here and at home.  I'm catching up with you a bit.  Posting your notes vertically:

 

I looked back over your original posts and don't see a photo of these markings on the tsuka.  Can you post for us?  Also, the photo of all the seppa is too blurry to see the markings, can we get a good clear shot of them too? Asap will try again to get photo

Yes they are

 just research notes.

[Jcstroud]

Best i can do very faint but there

[John C]

JC:

Are these from the same sword or do you have two with assembly number 45?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Yes they from the same sword I only have this one Toyosuke #45     found it in Puerto rico mountains.7 years ago

[george trotter]

On 4/27/2023 at 11:43 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

That is a question best presented to guys like @mecox and @george trotter

Sorry Guys, you know heaps more on these swords than I do...

Regards.

[BANGBANGSAN]

The カ (Ka) mark should be an inspection mark for 鎌倉 カマクラ, where the 天照山鍛錬場 Tenshōzan Forging Workshop was located.

[Jcstroud]

50 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The カ (Ka) mark should be an inspection mark for 鎌倉 カマクラ, where the 天照山鍛錬場 Tenshōzan Forging Workshop was located.

50 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The カ (Ka) mark should be an inspection mark for 鎌倉 カマクラ, where the 天照山鍛錬場 Tenshōzan Forging Workshop was located.

Bang Bang san do you have more info on this sword? Nakago pics  etc?

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

鎌倉 カマクラ

Trystan,

Could you give me an English version of that name for my files?

 

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

more info on this sword? Nakago pics

John,

I have 3 of these on file:

The one posted by Trystan

 

One from Wehrmacht-awards

 

And from Guns.ru

[Jcstroud]

鎌倉 カマクラ.   I think trystan wrote. KAMAKURA   not sure what the two first kanji symbols are .mid war,4mm stamps,varied locations, same filemark patterns,

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

鎌倉 カマクラ.   I think trystan wrote. KAMAKURA   not sure what the two first kanji symbols are .mid war,4mm stamps,varied locations, same filemark patterns,

カマクラ (Kamakura) is the pronunciation of the first two kanji 鎌倉, which represents the name of a Japanese city located in Kanagawa prefecture， where the 天照山鍛錬場 Tenshōzan Forging Workshop was located

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan,

Could you give me an English version of that name for my files?

 

 

カマクラ (Kamakura)=鎌倉

海軍鎌倉天照山鍛錬場=Navy Kamakura Tenshōzan Forging Workshop

[Bruce Pennington]

45 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

カマクラ (Kamakura)=鎌倉

Thanks Trystan!  So are you proposing the mark is an inspector mark of the Tenshzan shop? or another shop in the Kamkura area?  I could picture it as a contractor inspector stamp of Tenshzan, since the specialized Tenshozan anchor is an army inspector stamp.  Maybe this mark was being used by Tenshozan's own inspectors?