Arsenal Stamps.

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

we have a third, "97".  But the interesting thing is that it's on a blade in Type 94 fittings.  

 

 

 

 

 

It could be a 造兵刀

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks to Kevin, @Beater, who brought a couple of Mitsunobu blades to my attention.  I only had 1 other on file, and had not noticed, until Kevin pointed it out, the kao/kakihan is identical to kao found on Teruhide blades.  Doing a search, I found a thread where Ray Singer had quoted Rich Stein on his Japanese sword index website stating his opinion that the two may be the same guy.  Ishido Teruhide is a well known smith, but I don't see Ishido Mitsunobu in Sesko's list.  He's listed in Slough, but Slough believes the mei to be daimei (one smith signing for another).  I agree with Rich, and doubt a smith would share his kao with another smith, plus we know of several other smiths that changed their art names over time.  So, it's quite conceivable that Ishido Mitsunobu is simply another name used by Ishido Teruhide.

Teruhide                                                   Mitsunobu

 

I've regrouped the two in the upcoming Stamps doc revision to include this possibility.

 

Another interesting development is the realization that Mitsunobu blades have stamped numbers on the mune under the habaki!  I now have 3 on file, all undated - 707, 925, and 958.  Hate to think of the rest of them out there undetected because guys post their photos, often, with habaki in place.

[John C]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ishido Mitsunobu is simply another name

Bruce:

Are these both art names or could one be a family name?

John C.

[mecox]

John, Ishido is his family name.  There is a further compilation of Teruhide/Mitsunobu here  page 49

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 3/18/2011 at 9:32 PM, Joe Choi said:

KaneKado with Kokuin

Had some time on my hands, and was browsing.  After a close look at this kokuin, it's really quite different that the normal hotstamp.  The "1" and trhe outer shape of the turtle? is sunken.  But the light brown details, like the legs, are chiseled.  You can clearly see what I mean on the upper left leg.  Interesting!

[pc3319]

Good morning I’m looking for some assistance with translating the marking on my WW2 sword. Any help is greatly appreciated. Paul C  

[SteveM]

7 hours ago, pc3319 said:

I’m looking for some assistance

Hello Paul -

Seki-jū Mori Toshiharu saku

check out the link below.

 

 

[Beater]

7 hours ago, pc3319 said:

Good morning I’m looking for some assistance with translating the marking on my WW2 sword. Any help is greatly appreciated. Paul C  

Hi Paul,

I believe this is “Seki ju Mori Toshiharu saku” The Sho stamp indicates it is non-traditionally made.

Regards,

Kevin.

 

Opps - sorry SteveM, you already replied!

Edited February 14, 2023 by Beater
Realised question had already been answered while I was typing a reply.

[pc3319]

Ok first thanks for the information I don’t think I could have gotten it without you guys. I still can’t figure out how you can read this as the marking don’t match what’s printed next to the translation or at least not in my untrained first time ever trying eye. This is called a Shin-Gunto sword? And how do you read the markings from the top down or bottom up? I also have a tassel attached, is it proper and exactly what does it mean? Again I can’t thank you enough. 

[ROKUJURO]

Paul,

the signature (MEI) on the tang (NAKAGO) reads from the point downwards, so it is easier to read if the photos are positioned this way vertically. 

There are not so many symbols (KANJI) to be learned, however they are so special that most Japanese can't read them. Additionally, it needs a lot of training and comparing with certified signatures in books to be able to read the handwriting.

And even if you can read them, you cannot be sure that the swordsmith who made the blade signed with his own name.....

[Bruce Pennington]

GUNTO - "GUN": Army  "TO": sword, therefore "Army Sword".  Shingunto - "New Army Sword".  Kyu gunto: "Old Army Sword.  Kai gunto: "Navy Army Sword" (Ha, I know, it does't work well in English).  

 

Your tassel, brown/blue, is the Company grade officer tassel (Lt's-Capts), and you've pretty much hung it properly.

 

I highly recommend spending some time reading through Ohmura's most excellent site: Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Gunto).  65 pages of primo photos and several with history and educational stuff.

[pc3319]

I just took a look at the site, so much information! Why when you google it does nonsense sites come up? I had to dig through two other sites to find this one. Thanks again 

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 2/11/2023 at 1:07 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Had some time on my hands, and was browsing.  After a close look at this kokuin, it's really quite different that the normal hotstamp.  The "1" and trhe outer shape of the turtle? is sunken.  But the light brown details, like the legs, are chiseled.  You can clearly see what I mean on the upper left leg.  Interesting!

Bruce

The hot stamp of Kanezane has a very similar shape. Collectors in China called it "Little turtle"小乌龟。

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is a "WA" stamp on a bayonet.  Note the Kokura Arsenal stamp.  Of this stamp, Fuller says:

"Wa" stamp.  Probably indicates manufacture in an occupied area, most likely by a collaborating force.  Found on poor quality rolled or hammered blades"

Since this has a Kokura stamp, I assume the Wa indicates "poor quality rolled or hammered blade" but probably Japanese made on the mainland. 

Previous examples are on sword blades that were clearly made in "an occupied area."

and

 

I appreciate seeing the bayonet example, as it expands on the use of the WA stamp.

Corrections or additional thoughts are welcome!

[Bruce Pennington]

There's another stamp on that same bayonet I don't recognize.  Anyone make it out?  It's pretty faded.

 

@SteveM @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN

[SteveM]

Hard to say. 鈴 (suzu) as in the name Suzuki? 　

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Anyone make it out?

Not real close but could it be a variation of the Toyoda mark (top left in picture)?

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

鈴，one of the inspection mark for Type 30 bayonet, this one could be the inspection team’s (鈴木） name. There are other kanjis as well,菅，石，原，松，齋etc.

@Bruce Penningtonthe 和 mark on the type 30 bayonet has no connection with the ones on the 偽軍刀.

There are also the W mark and big M an mark on the pommel of the early type30, and it doesn't look like the M/W mark on the Guntos.

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

the 和 mark on the type 30 bayonet has no connection with the ones on the 偽軍刀.

Ok.  Just another reminder of why I've stayed away from Bayonet World!  They have a vast array of stamps that would overwhelm my limited time to try to track.

 

So, in short, disregard my first post about the WA, then.

[Bruce Pennington]

Latest update to the Stamps of the Japanese Sword document, thank you Brian!  And thank you Thomas for pointing it out for me!

 

As I'm updating these twice per year, I've switched from the "Version X.X" to a date "March 2023".  

 

Updates:

- Added Ohmura's post from a 1940 Japanese magazine that clearly states the Showa stamp was being used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association.

- Added a new section documenting blades with both Kakihan and Kokuin kao together on nakago.

- Added an example of an engraved flaming jewel on the Buddhist section.

- Added another stamped mei - Shigenaga

- Added a Yoshiharu example to the W/Double Chevron stamp discussion.

- Kakihan page: Put Mitsunobu and Teruhide together with a note explaining that it's believed they were the same smith, hence the same kao

- Kamon page: Added an example with large AOI leaf on a 1721 Masakiyo nakago

- Stamped Numbers page: Added smiths with Matsu stamp and rearranged page to make the map larger

- Unknowns page: Added 3 new unknown stamps

- Added a section for Kyu gunto and Type 8/19 shop logo

 

My sincere gratitude to all NMB members who continue to discover these items and bring them to our attention!

[Kiipu]

Found this maker's mark 洟 at the link below.  Also note the decorative habaki.

陸軍将官軍刀（外装）

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Wiktionary says the charactor is 

Category:Japanese terms spelled with 洟
洟
(uncommon “Hyōgai” kanji)

nasal mucus
 

Hope the shop name is something less gross!

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 3/13/2023 at 5:17 AM, Kiipu said:

Found this maker's mark 洟 at the link below.  Also note the decorative habaki.

陸軍将官軍刀（外装）

 

Thomas

The link doesn't look right....

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another "TAI" stamp on a star-stamped Masayoshi blade, 1945.  Can't make out the month, is that a cursive style "4" @SteveM?

 

[SteveM]

Yes, I think its four (四). 

 

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington Not sure if this has been covered. In re: the double chevron. Could it have something to do with an infantry designation?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

We (Thomas) went through 2 or 3 different uses of the yamagata, or double chevron.  One was "War Department Property"

 

But we found out that the W or M had already been known to the gun/bayonet guys for quite some time as an interim/midway inspection mark, which matched perfectly to the reg chart Thomas found.

[Jcstroud]

Double anchor stamp? The smaller one is incrusted with olive drab paint points to the possibility it was to (1.) hide the  small arsenal stamp   or (2) the paint was used to designate the surplus  blade for the army contract of the 8747. Then being covered Tenshozan restamped the blade a second time. And then became a "souvenir" .could this mean the small ones came first or a different inspector? Another Mystery!!!!!

[John C]

With that area highlighted by the arrow void of paint and the width of the lines, it appears it may be an acid mark.

Just a thought. Hard to tell from pics. Still don't know why there would be two, though. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Why would anyone use acid on a nakago?

7 hours ago, John C said:

With that area highlighted by the arrow void of paint and the width of the lines, it appears it may be an acid mark.

Just a thought. Hard to tell from pics. Still don't know why there would be two, though. 

John C.