Arsenal Stamps.

[Shamsy]

Thanks, Bruce. Seen a few and pretty sure I've got a couple. Extra stamps are always interesting and pretty unusual. 

[Kiipu]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

but a guy I know has this Suya Shoten 95 with an additional TO stamp on the back side of the fuchi.

 

In regards to the scabbard, what color is it and what is the serial number?

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

what color is it and what is the serial number?

2 posts back: Here.

[robinalexander]

Put on this thread for interest @Stegel @Shamsy @Kiipu

 

Couple of marks, possibly assembly marks on the nakago of Pattern 1 Copper 95.

 

[Kiipu]

Rob, what is the serial number of the blade that this marking is coming from?  Are there any other markings on the tang?  In regards to the nakago marking, I think it could be the number 十五?  You will need to rotate the picture around 90 degrees to see it though.

[robinalexander]

Hi Thomas, blade number 4042.  No other marking on tang or mune.

 

十五 so you think it could be 15 ?

 

I have no idea at all but I will throw this is  just in case it means something to someone .... 10 + No/Yuki ? 

 

Rob

[Stegel]

It's a shame the mounting hole is so close, so as to make ID harder.

I have an early type 95 with these stamps instead of the W,  and also, some similar scratched numbers on the tang.

[robinalexander]

Stegel, I think Thomas is onto something.

 

Yours looks like 95 and as Thomas said, mine looks like 15.

 

Rob

 

Thomas @Kiipu where do you get that kanji (e.g. the number 十五?  ) that you can just add into your messages?

 

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

6 hours ago, robinalexander said:

Hi Thomas, blade number 4042.  No other marking on tang or mune.

 

十五 so you think it could be 15 ?

 

I have no idea at all but I will throw this is  just in case it means something to someone .... 10 + No/Yuki ? 

 

Rob

It could be 十二 too

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Stegel said:

It's a shame the mounting hole is so close, so as to make ID harder.

I have an early type 95 with these stamps instead of the W,  and also, some similar scratched numbers on the tang.

 

九五=Type 95？

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Stegel said:

type 95 with these stamps

Those are the "Ki" of the 2nd Factory of Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal, and the "To" of Tokyo 1st.

[Bruce Pennington]

After seeing Stegel's numbers, I'd lean toward a "19".  The hole cut over the number, if a "5" would have left the topmost horizontal stroke.  I've simulated ana over the 9 and 5 of Erns' number:

[Kiipu]

To give credit where credit is due, I was aware of the markings on Stegel's sword from past correspondence and that was what prompted me to think the markings on Rob's sword were numbers.  However, I could not come out and state as such as the information was conveyed by private message.  It is as we say in the US, Stegel's story to tell.

 

And finally, the number could be any of the ones suggested above.

[Stegel]

 

 

These markings are not stamps as such, probably why i didn't mention mine earlier, but Robs is the second one i've seen now, and maybe more exist out there in collectons.

 

We've seen numbers stamped on tangs before and the opinions are either koshirae assembly numbers or personal smith tallys via series/numbering. (even Bruce's Roman numeral numbering system and the 'Dot' punch markings would be included here)

 

I didn't mean to muddy the waters with my example, but highlight the fact that there appears to be another such system which is similar and yet slightly different. Of which Rob's and mine are the two known examples so far. This in itself is not enough to say a system was in place, but we can never say never.

 

My initial thoughts on my sword were the same as Trystan's :

Quote

九五=Type 95？

however now seeing Rob's i'm not so sure.  i'm thinking his looks more like a 19 also, and therefore i'm leaning towards an assembly number of sorts. However, The other fittings are not marked, just the blade itself (on mine at least)

 

I'm was hoping that Thomas upon seeing these as numbers,may have had more info in this matter, to make us all a bit smarter!

Looking forward to more thoughts on these!

[Kiipu]

Rob, it just occurred to me, that your sword 4042 could be the very same sword that is depicted in the thread linked to below.  If this is the case, what is the the thickness of the brass crossguard, either 9 or 11 millimeters?

Type 95 seppa early Pattern with Brass tsuba

[robinalexander]

LOL yes Thomas you are sort of right. 

 

The sword(s) pictured in that thread are random selections I grabbed of the net just to show the actual seppa. Wish any one was mine.

 

But the reason for the thread itself was looking for top/bottom  (now only top) seppa, certainly relates to my sword.

 

My brass tsuba is 10.7/8 mm  so that looks ok. 

 

Rob

[Bruce Pennington]

As I was filing these, I found (forgot they were there!) two Type 95 nakago with actual stamped numbers - 260, and 1551, both on very late pattern 95s.  So the idea isn't out of the question:

[Kiipu]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:26 PM, Stegel said:

I'm was hoping that Thomas upon seeing these as numbers, may have had more info in this matter, to make us all a bit smarter!

 

Yikes!  The sampling is small and asking someone to take apart a perfectly fine copper-handled Type 95 is never a good idea unless the reward is greater than the looseness that follows!

 

To summarize though, the following can be said about non-standard Type 95 numbers.

1. Pattern 1 swords with hand carved numbers on the tang that range from serial number 109 to 4042.  See the posts above and only two known so far.

2. Pattern 1 swords with the ホ prefixed numbers in the 5,000 to 6,000 range.  See the thread Another copper NCO.

3. Jinsen Pattern 7 & 8 swords with a tang serial number.  I am aware of three so far: 260 (Pattern 8), 1285 (refitted as a Type 100), and 1551 (Pattern 7).  It is unknown if the 300,000 range also has these tang numbers as I am unaware of one being disassembled yet.  Hoping Bruce will have a go at one soon!

4. Pattern 5 swords that have no serial numbers on the blade; but, are serialized on the scabbard throat.  This discussion is intermixed within the thread Questions about "late war", NCO swords.

5. Sometimes letters and numbers were added by returning allied servicemen.  This was usually in the form of their initials, name, rank, or service number.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

It is unknown if the 300,000 range also has these tang numbers as I am unaware of one being disassembled yet.  Hoping Bruce will have a go at one soon!

 Nice synopsis, Thomas.  I don't own one of those, or I would.  Just have to sit around waiting for the Curious Cats to have a look and post.

[John C]

Not sure if this fits this thread, however here is a numbered blade. Blade is signed and dated (March 1943) but no other information (blade is broken with no koshirae). There is no bo-hi or serial number on the actual blade, so probably something different than a type 95.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, John C said:

however here is a numbered blade.

John, could I get a link to the rest of the photos, either here or via PM?

 

And anyone got a name on this ..... Takamasa?

@Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN @SteveM

[Bruce Pennington]

Also, @John C has found another Kanemichi blade with the Yasuki Steel stamp

 

But what's killing me is there are 2 stamps at the top, the lower one likely a Showa stamp, but the upper one totally defies me.  Any ideas, guys?

[John C]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John, could I get a link to the rest of the photos

Here it is. But it's just a broken blade for .99 cents!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/394343215742?hash=item5bd0aff27e%3Ag%3AUysAAOSwtYdjesli&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoESP%2FM8Y94bUdjx1HigJbLrXeGO66vWZy180LquXhDXi93CIAk2fBMvG3Q2%2FN5NNdLIFmL0xoyH7SzWLG%2B33RchVcFa1FJNEovbjkjhRK%2FWDvJ19xlYBXpZzqGM6gpDtQoZGwqOgMz8H3vqMi8%2BHphDnsXDGJ6SCRD7N%2BwOmbVRh%2FpeqH%2F6CEf8JtRoOu%2F1HpWY5vwyxlTt5W8jbj9P0Ekg%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8i96t2TYQ&LH_ItemCondition=4|10

 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, John C said:

Here it is.

Thanks John!  Yes, Takamasa, from Sesko:

TAKAMASA (高正), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Takamasa” (高正), real name Yasuda Yoshitarō (安田芳太郎), born April 7th 1912, he worked as guntō smith

 

We now have 3 of his, and all 3 were numbered like this, above the mei:

Feb 1943 267

Mar 1943 246

May 1943 476

 

One of the very few non-RJT smiths with stamped numbers.

 

[Stegel]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

TAKAMASA (高正), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989),

Gifu – “Takamasa” (高正), real name Yasuda Yoshitarō (安田芳太郎), born April 7th 1912, he worked as guntō smith

 

We now have 3 of his, and all 3 were numbered like this, above the mei:

Feb 1943 267

Mar 1943 246

May 1943 476

 

One of the very few non-RJT smiths with stamped numbers.

 

Bruce,

 just an observation, i think we need to confirm the dates.

 

If correct, then i'm unsure of what these numbers actually represent, as they could not be the smiths personal tally as such IMO. (at least what i thought they most likely were)

 

246 was made in March, but 267 was made in Feb? (a possible time warp- back to the future?)

Also assuming 246 was made at the start of March, and 476 at the end of May, then in 3 months he made 230 blades??   

 

The things that make you go hhmmmm!!

 

[Kiipu]

I think I see numbers on a Takamasa 高正 posted by Shamsy back in 2020.  Maybe the same as the one Bruce lists as 267?

last ditch naval rinji?, Post #8

[SrBrenner]

Kokuin!

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, Kiipu said:

  Maybe the same as the one Bruce lists as 267?

Yes, that's the one.

20 hours ago, Stegel said:

just an observation, i think we need to confirm the dates.

Already thought of that! Pictures below.  I have come across other examples of a number out of sequence, and it's puzzling.  But I think Thomas might have mentioned the idea that some of these blades were collected by an Area Inspector and transported to the Arsenal for processing.  Whether he stamped the blades or it was done at the arsenal is unknown.  So, maybe another smith's blades were mixed in accounting for the increased number gap.  I've not found numbers to be in a complete jumble, they are predominantly in order, per smith, but there are other examples of a single number out of sequence.

Feb '43 267

 

Mar '43 246

 

Apr '43 476

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, SrBrenner said:

Kokuin!

Thanks Scott, is that from the Slough book?

[Bruce Pennington]

On 11/22/2022 at 5:58 PM, Stegel said:

then in 3 months he made 230 blades??   

Interesting post by @Kiipu, quoting Chris Bowen discussing another smith - Yoshiharu - who had a team of 8 workings that made 240 blades per month here: Yoshiharu discussion.