Arsenal Stamps.

[Kiipu]

Thanks Bruce.  Below is a link to the earliest Nagamitsu that I am aware of.  It lacks the 阪 final inspection mark before the serial number like the later blades have.

Help with inherited Sword

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Kiipu said:

earliest Nagamitsu

Here is my updated "Mune Numbers" chart on Nagamitsu.  If the numbers were running in order, I have 2 earlier blades than 695:

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

15 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Here is my updated "Mune Numbers" chart on Nagamitsu.  If the numbers were running in order, I have 2 earlier blades than 695:

 

Bruce

Did you saw this one? 阪 2511

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

this one? 阪 2511

Sorry Trystan, I had that one listed in the Saka chart, but failed to copy it into the Mune Stamps chart.  Corrected:

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding this from @Volker62's thread Newly Ichi Ryushi in Type 3 Gunto koshirae.

 

I haven't been tracking arsenal stamps on koshirae.  I know I've seen plenty of "TO" stamps on fittings.  Maybe a "Seki" and a "NA" occasionally.  But this is the first "Saka" of the Osaka Army Arsenal I've seen on fittings.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another Yamato fittings logo Tsuba, and what appears to be the officers name engraved - a standard practice for this company? 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 minute ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

appears to be the officers name engraved - a standard practice for this company

I think you’re right about that John. I never noticed it until you pointed it out, but it looks like a practice of this particular shop to put their owners name on it.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another Tsuba with name (illegible) engraved on the Tsuba from this shop: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304437116678?hash=item46e1ddbf06:g:-XQAAOSw71NiUyjx

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Another Tsuba with name (illegible) engraved on the Tsuba from this shop: https://www.ebay.com/itm/304437116678?hash=item46e1ddbf06:g:-XQAAOSw71NiUyjx

 

 

Kind of like 山川 or 小川

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Seems often 

On 4/8/2022 at 11:20 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Another Yamato fittings logo Tsuba, and what appears to be the officers name engraved - a standard practice for this company? 

 

 

Seems like that

 

[Kiipu]

John & Trystan, another sword that was fitted out by Yamamoto Military Sword Shop 山本軍刀店 Yamamoto Guntō-Ten.

Wwii Japanese Sword With A Tachi Blade From Kamakura Period?

[BANGBANGSAN]

Anyone know what this is ?It was found in an old Japanese camp site in China.

[Kiipu]

A double-struck arsenal stamping on a kabutogane.  Magnify to clearly see the arsenal and company logo.

Stamp on kabuto-gane

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, Kiipu said:

A double-struck arsenal stamping on a kabutogane.  Magnify to clearly see the arsenal and company logo.

Stamp on kabuto-gane

Pics brought over for discussion, rather than reviving the old thread:

 

The star is of the Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal, and the stamp on the right is one of the "unknowns".  I don't understand 'Gunto's' post claiming the single one to be of the 'Chuo Kogyo Co'.  It looks more like a double-struck "TO", Tokyo Arsenal Inspector stamp.  I looked up Chuo Kogyo Co and the stamps on Nambu pistols were quite different than this.

 

What do you think Thomas?

[Kiipu]

First, below is the link to the Kunihiro 國廣 sword from which these markings are coming from.  Note the numbers above the 名 stamp.  Second, it does indeed look like a double-struck 東 to me as well.

translation on 43' shin- gunto showato

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

numbers above the 名 stamp. 

Thanks for that!

 

"250"? "260"?  Any thoughts?

[Bruce Pennington]

Speaking of Arsenal Stamps - In 1942'ish, the Army assumed control of all sword production, and we see stamps on blades greatly proliferate.  The numbers of observed stamped blades matches.  Showa and large Seki stamps were the stamps being used prior to this, and both quickly taper off at 1942.  I had been assuming that there must have been some regulation or mandate from the Army/Navy for this.

 

I recently realized the vast majority of stamps come from the Seki/Gifu area.  Showa, Large-Seki, Na (of Nagoya), and Gifu account for the lion's share of observed stamps.  There are a smattering of Kokura ('42-'45) and a few Osaka ('43-'44).  So where's Tokyo 1st????

 

With the Type 95s it is clear that Tokyo 1st was stamping blades, but stamps on officer blades are almost non-existant.  I have 4 undated zoheito with the "TO" and one officer blade with the "KI" (2nd Factory of Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal).  FIVE blades from Tokyo vs almost 300 blades from mostly Seki/Gifu and Nagoya.  About 7 from Osaka, and around 10 with Kokura (but even these are mixed with Nagoya stamps).

 

An interesting point is the co-location of Gifu and Aichi (Nagoya's prefecture):

 

These two prefectures, combined, account for at least 90% of stamped blades.  We know that Gifu/Seki produced approximately 70% of WWII blades, so why aren't there 30% of blades stamped with everything else, especially Tokyo???  The nearly total lack of Tokyo stamps on officer blades has me really puzzled.

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So where's Tokyo 1st?  ...  The nearly total lack of Tokyo stamps on officer blades has me really puzzled.

 

They are on the fittings and not on the blades.  Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 usually just used a yamagata M partial inspection mark on the blades.  The final inspection mark will be on the fittings.  When you factor this in, one will see that they made plenty of swords.

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

They are on the fittings and not on the blades.  Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 usually just used a yamagata M partial inspection mark on the blades.  The final inspection mark will be on the fittings.  When you factor this in, one will see that they made plenty of swords.

The use of the yamagata fits our earliest observations about the mark seeming to be used in the Tokyo area.  And I see what you mean about the TO appearing on a few kabutogane. 

 

I wonder about the idea, though, of waiting for finished gunto before stamping.  Doesn't seem like an effective method of meeting a stamping requirement (if one existed), as many, many blades were sent out to various shops for fitting which would not necessarily ever make it back to the arsenal for final inspection.  If this was their method, we should be seeing way more TO stamped kabutogane.

 

We have numerous blades double and sometimes triple stamped by Kokura, Nagoya, and Gifu (who the heck was that?  Civil Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc?).  Stamps all over the nakago ..... but when we get to Tokyo - meh.  Kabutogane here, W on blade there, but mostly absent knowing the vast number of blades that cycled through the arsenal.  We should be seeing the TO all over the place.  Unless ..... unless there was no requirement at all?  Yet, I don't think that is the answer.  We have a regulation chart showing the officially designated stamps of each arsenal and their associated inspectors.  So, it must have been a regulatory requirement.

 

Another issue - by stamping koshirae, not blades, showato make it into the world without being marked as showato.  What does that say?  The original intent of the Seki industry to mark quality showato was a commercial move, not military (as far as we understand).  So, are we seeing that the military stamping of swords was totally disassociated from the issue and truly a simple inspection/acceptance mark?  Maybe so.  But why the totally different approach to stamping by Tokyo?  Not very uniform for a highly regulated military function.

 

I'm still puzzled.

[Bruce Pennington]

OOPS!  Found an error in the Stamps of the Japanese Sword, ver 8.6. 

Page 13, I have the "KI" stamp as being the 2nd Factory of the 'Kokura' Army Arsenal.  It should read the Tokyo 1st:

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:06 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

There are a smattering of Kokura ('42-'45) and a few Osaka ('43-'44).  So where's Tokyo 1st????

 

Tokyo 1st Stamped M on a quite few Mantetsu ， 武久，義治's Tang。Most of them also have 東 mark on Kabutogane.

[Bruce Pennington]

22 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Tokyo 1st Stamped M on a quite few Mantetsu ， 武久，義治's Tang。Most of them also have 東 mark on Kabutogane.

This was Thomas' thought too.  After reviewing the 1944 production chart, I see Tokyo 1st produced a similar number of blades as the Osaka and Kokura arsenals, and I only have 7 Osaka and 6 Kokura stamped blades on file.  So, I suppose the numbers of Tokyo 1st stamps should be inline with that, which would mean we really wouldn't see a great number of them out and about.  And that fits the few examples we have seen of he stamping you describe. 

 

The numbers of  Tokyo 1st, Osaka, and Kokura combined are still lower than I'd expect, which puzzles me some.  I have roughly 100 Nagoya/small-seki blades on file.  Knowing that they produced roughly 2/3's of all blades, then the combined To/Saka/Ko blades on record should be around 50.  But I only have about 20 observed.  That might simply be due to difficulties in sampling - I only see stamps that show up on NMB!

 

I guess I'm ok for now.  Thanks guys!

[BANGBANGSAN]

Saw this 吉 mark on a Navy dirk, any idea what sword shop might be?

@Kiipu

 

[Kiipu]

I seem to recall seeing this logo before.  Nick depicts this logo in his Suya missive.  The logo could be based upon the simplified character 寿?  Check the blade to make sure it has a steel blade versus the postwar alloy reproductions.

Ｔhe Untold Story of Suya Shoten

[Bruce Pennington]

That is the same stamp in Nick's example.  Looks to me like a stylized "壽".  Which makes me wonder, now, where the logo found on Type 95's came from.  It seems to me that the one on 95's is a more full renditon of that kanji and the ones on early dirks are maybe simplified?

[Bruce Pennington]

Another thought is that the logo on the Dirk is specific to navy items that Suya made, while the other logo is specific to army items. We have seen that in some other stamps.

[Endrass]

Hi,

 

The Suya Sho Then logo presented on page 73 of Otto Maxein's book "Samurai swords for the Material battle" is identical to that of the Type 95, although in this case on the nakago of a gendaito with a Type 98 mount. 

 

 

Mario

[Kiipu]

@Endrass was that Suya logo on page 73 by chance on a Yoshichika 良近 blade?  Back in March 2021, @PNSSHOGUN found one with a similar style marking.

Murata Swords 村田刀

[Endrass]

@Kiipu Exactly!. Nidai Minamoto Yoshichika. It seems that we have the 6 and 14 localized....But what is the theory about this...

 

I have not yet read the book (I received it today) and in German, which will take me more time. But I don't know if it will contribute anything in this regard. 

 

 

[Kiipu]

I think Yoshichika worked for Suya or did contract work for them?  Last year @mdiddy sold a hybrid sword using a Yoshichika blade, Type 98 fittings, with a Type 95 hilt.  The Type 95 fittings were parts only made by Suya.  Matt has posted several pictures of this hybrid sword in the thread below.

Hand forged blade in 95 mounts on eBay

 

Of special note.

皇紀二千六百年 = Kōki 2600 = 1940.

源良近作之 = Minamoto Yoshichika saku kore.

The tang only has the one hole suggesting the blade was specially made for these Type 95 parts.

The two-piece hilt construction. This would possibly require the use of 2 hilts so as to make the one?

Hilt has no cutout for the top mounted release latch.

Hilt not drilled for a mekugi.

Possibly a custom made wood liner for the hilt.

Crossguard made from aluminium?

 

And there is probably more details that I am missing!

@Stegel & @Shamsy

Edited June 30, 2022 by Kiipu