Arsenal Stamps.

[Bruce Pennington]

After reading a link posted by @Kiipu on Warrelics, I thought I'd post this here (it's on the Mantetsu Survey thread).  @IJASWORDS gave us this copy of a letter explaining the gathering of blades by the army.  The author claims that Seki blades sold to the military were gathered in a warehouse and stamped with either the Showa or Anchor.  It's significant, because if accurate, it makes the Showa stamp an Army stamp, not a civil stamp.  Thoughts?

 

 

[Kiipu]

Hot stamp alert!

Help with a gendaito mei

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Hot stamp

Good one Thomas!  I have an oshigata in the Stamps document on this one, but his photo is better.  I've added it to the doc.

[shibeni]

Add a red stamp rmark on Tsuka...any info on this one?

Bojan S.

[Bruce Pennington]

This is what I thought of as soon as I saw it:

but seriously, my initial reaction is that the horizontal lines are the “2 2” we see on your metal fittings.  But I don’t know the meaning of the other marking.  Probably a shop inspector, or the fitter himself may have his own stamp.

[shibeni]

49 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

This is what I thought of as soon as I saw it:

 

If not relevant, I can delate it, saw Brians comment from 2010 on other rare tsuka markings, so maybe interesting for someone..

Regards,

Bojan

[Bruce Pennington]

9 minutes ago, shibeni said:

If not relevant, I can delate it, saw Brians comment from 2010 on other rare tsuka markings, so maybe interesting for someone..

Regards,

Bojan

No, quite interesting and relevant.  Humor is a tough thing across cultures and on the internet.  That image is used in bumper stickers and the markings on your tsuka reminded me of it!

 

I’m glad you posted it.  Maybe someday someone will find a reference.

[Kiipu]

@shibeni It is a decal that is commonly found on pickup trucks in the United States.  The character depicted is coming from a comic strip called Calvin and Hobbes.  It is unauthorized of course and here is a short article about it.

The tasteless history of the peeing Calvin decal

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, I’m not posting anymore when I’ve had a couple.

[shibeni]

Bruce, I didn't uderstand at frst, so all clear now..no problem;)

I don't know for possible saya markings as, I don't want to unscrew it and tear apart.

Regards,

Bojan

[Brandon_Lane]

Hello, I'm looking for any information on my grandfather's Nihonto that was given to him by his Uncle. I have identified the Na inspection stamp, but I am very inexperienced and not sure what to look for.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Brandon_Lane, welcome to NMB! We'll help for a price ...... we'll need to see pics of the full sword, closeups of the hamon (temper line) and blade tip, and some good shots of the fittings!  Ha!  We don't work cheap!

 

Seriously, (ok I'm serious about the added photos!), the date is May 1943, and someone will help with the smith name.

 

I don't see the "Na" stamp.  Can you give us a clear shot of that?  Also, is that a small star above the smith's name, to the left of the hole?

 

I appreciate your posting the tsuba (handguard) as it has that small star.  We don't know it's meaning but suspect it's a fittings shop logo.  We have a couple like this on file, but no leads to who used it.

[MarcoUdin]

4 hours ago, Brandon_Lane said:

Hello, I'm looking for any information on my grandfather's Nihonto that was given to him by his Uncle.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the blade is signed Kanenori 兼則

Edited August 26, 2021 by MarcoUdin
Added kanji

[Bruce Pennington]

While we wait for updates from @Brandon_Lane, I'll post a survey I completed on my Showa-stamped blades.

 

I have 118 blades on file with the Showa stamp, from 45 smiths.

 

118 blades

45 smiths

_____________

33 from Gifu/Seki

11 from other prefectures (Fukushima, Gunma, Aomori, Chiba (2), Yamanashi, Fukuoka, Omi or Shiga, Tofuji, Miyazaki or Hyugo, Tottori)

 

So 24% of the blades are NOT from Gifu/Seki.  This raises the question about the Showa stamp being the one used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc., as I've noted in the Stamps Document.  I'll have to dig out my source, I think it was Chris Bowen's interview with a swordsmith, that claimed the Showa stamp was being put on blades by the Army.  This new survey data would support that.  As we know, Seki produced approx. 70% of all WWII blades.  The Showa-stamped blades in this survey from Seki/Gifu is 76% with 24% from other prefectures.  If the Seki Cutlery Man. Assoc. was applying the Showa stamp, why would it be appearing on non-Seki/Gifu blades?  It is more logical, though, if the stamp were an Army stamp who would be inspecting blades from all over Japan.

 

I will next survey my files of Seki-stamped (large) blades.  They should all be from Seki/Gifu if this is going in that direction.

 

Edit:  the source was a letter from polisher Sugiyama to Ron Gregory in my post at the top of this page,

[Bruce Pennington]

Seki update:

 

61 smiths - 124 blades (large Seki)

 

Awaiting request for prefectures on several smiths, but what shocked me was I already have 9 smiths from prefectures outside the Seki/Gifu authority:

 

Kanetsugu - Gunma

Kazunori - Aichi

Masatsune - Chiba

Masayuki - Yamanashi

Nobumitsu - Fukuoka

Sadakatsu - Osaka

Yoshichika - Tokyo

Yoshikane - Tottori

Yoshitada - Saga

 

I will update if any of the unknowns turn out to be from someplace other than Gifu.

 

Why would blades made outside Gifu be inspected by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association?

[Bruce Pennington]

So, to summarize, both the Showa and large Seki stamp can be found on blades from several areas, not just Seki/Gifu.

 

Showa: 76% are from Gifu;           Seki: 85% from Gifu;

14% from other prefectures                  15% from other prefectures

Other:                                            Other:

Aomori                                          Aichi

Chiba                                             Chiba

Fukuoka                                         Fukuoka

Fukushima                                      Gunma

Gunma                                           Osaka

Nagano                                          Saga

Omi or Shiga                                Tokyo

Tottori                                           Tottori

                                                      Yamanashi

 

There were 25 smiths whose blades were found marked by both the Showa and Seki stamps (not on the same blade), and one that had both plus a blade with the Toyokawa arsenal anchor.

 

Amahide

Hidetoshi

Jumyo

Kanefusa

Kaneharu

Kanehiro

Kanekado

Kanemasa

Kanemichi

Kanemune

Kanenao (Sho, Se, & Toyokawa)

Kanenori

Kaneshige

Kanetada

Kanetsugu

Kaneyoshi

Kanezane

Masanobu

Masatsune (Chiba)

Masayuki (Yamanashi)

Ujifusa

Yasutsuna

Yoshiaki

Yoshinao

Yoshikane (Tottori)

Yamanashi

 

So, this does not support or disprove the polisher's claim that the Army was using the Showa stamp.  It is still possible.  Just speculating, but maybe smiths outside Gifu were selling swords to shops in Gifu, or to one of the Guilds, which put their blades under the scrutiny of the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc. and thereby receiving the Seki stamp. 

 

Interesting investigation, but unfortunately it only added to the mystery rather than clearing anything up.

 

[Brandon_Lane]

@Bruce Pennington, sorry for the delay. I really appreciate your help. My grandfather is getting a kick out of all this. I didn't see a star above the smith name.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Brandon!  Definitely a "Na" stamp.  The army assumed control of all sword production in late '41-early '42.  By '43 the Showa and large Seki stamps faded away and the arsenals and prefectures started stamping blades.  This one is from the Nagoya Army Arsenal.

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

What do you think?

155 or 551?

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/27/2021 at 8:30 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

So, to summarize, both the Showa and large Seki stamp can be found on blades from several areas, not just Seki/Gifu.

 

Showa: 76% are from Gifu;           Seki: 85% from Gifu;

14% from other prefectures                  15% from other prefectures

Other:                                            Other:

Aomori                                          Aichi

Chiba                                             Chiba

Fukuoka                                         Fukuoka

Fukushima                                      Gunma

Gunma                                           Osaka

Nagano                                          Saga

Omi or Shiga                                Tokyo

Tottori                                           Tottori

                                                      Yamanashi

 

There were 26 smiths whose blades were found marked by both the Showa and Seki stamps (not on the same blade), and one that had both plus a blade with the Toyokawa arsenal anchor.

 

Amahide

Hidetoshi

Jumyo

Kanefusa

Kaneharu

Kanehiro

Kanekado

Kanemasa

Kanemichi

Kanemune

Kanenao (Sho, Se, & Toyokawa)

Kanenori

Kaneshige

Kanetada

Kanetsugu

Kaneyoshi

Kanezane

Masanobu

Masatsune (Chiba)

Masayuki (Yamanashi)

Nagamitsu

Ujifusa

Yasutsuna

Yoshiaki

Yoshinao

Yoshikane (Tottori)

Yamanashi

 

So, this does not support or disprove the polisher's claim that the Army was using the Showa stamp.  It is still possible.  Just speculating, but maybe smiths outside Gifu were selling swords to shops in Gifu, or to one of the Guilds, which put their blades under the scrutiny of the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Assoc. and thereby receiving the Seki stamp. 

 

Interesting investigation, but unfortunately it only added to the mystery rather than clearing anything up.

 

I updated that list to include Nagamitsu of Gifu

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:19 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

155 or 551?

Trystan

I'd be tempted to read it, blade tip up, so more like 15  14; or 141  14

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I'd like to consolidate a discussion we are having about the Navy anchor in circle stamp.  @Kiipu has pointed out a regulation that shows Toyokawa Navy Arsenal stamps ON THIS 1883 NAVY SWORDS THREAD and none of them are in circle.  In fact, he shows examples of the anchor without circle or sakura.  After tracking down an earlier discussion of this thread - WHY ARE MON RARE ON KAI GUNTO?, I discovered a page posted by @BANGBANGSAN that supports Thomas' new disclosure.  In my files, I have a photo of a Type 99 Arisaka rifle with the plain anchor without circle or sakura which seems to support this idea.

 

So, the question arises - Who the heck was using the anchor in circle and anchor in sakura stamps if not Toyokawa?  The anchor in circle is only (so far) found on sword blades and the anchor in sakura is found on dirks, seppa, and bayonets.  It's not likely to be a shop logo as I have a seppa with both the anchor in sakura AND a Gunto Saisaku Jo logo

 

In fact, the dirk photo I have has 2 stamps as well:

 

The double stamps originally supported the idea that the anchor stamps were from the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal.  Thomas is proposing that the stamps are, instead, a stamp like the Showa and large Seki stamps, which in today's understanding were private stamps used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association.  His source indicated that the blades destined for the navy received their own stamps, and that may explain these.

 

LINK TO THE REG PAGES

Trystan's page:

豊川海軍工廠Toyokawa-mark.pdf

I'm open for ideas.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Digging a little, I'm reminded that the late-war kaigunto usually just had the circled anchor with no mei.  The blades in the post war souvenir all have the circled anchor.  Post war, the Tenzoshan factory was allowed to remain open and make souvenir swords and they all had this stamp.  Would this support Thomas' idea?  Would this say the circled anchor was actually the Tenzoshan Factory stamp?  We've already learned thanks to @Kiipu that our reference books that show the stylized anchor as the Tenzohsan stamp, were wrong, that in fact it's the Navy Kamakura-Tenzoshan Inspector stamp.  Or was the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal still operating after the war and stamping these souvenir blades?  Maybe someone knows the post-war history of the arsenal?  Seems unlikely, even if open, that a Military Arsenal would be stamping souvenirs made for G.I. tourists.         

 

Back to the previous post, though, I found discussions about the evolution of the Mukden stamps revealed by @BANGBANGSAN HERE and @Stegel HERE.  Would this practice support the idea that the unadorned anchor of the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal was in fact being used in circles and sakura on varying items?  If not, why don't we see the unadorned anchor on a multitude of weapons, swords, etc?  Was the Army the only arsenal system that widely stamped their military equipment?

 

My final observation is in looking at the "He" of Jensen and the circled "He" of the Hoten Corp.

Maybe this one isn't the same as what we are discussing?  Could it just be coincidence that the Hoten Corp used the "He" in their stamp, or could this be an example of the Jensen Arsesnal using variations of their inspector stamps for different factories?

 

I know I'm all over the place with these 3 questions, but just thought I'd post them in hopes of stirring some insight from someone/anyone.

[Kolekt-To]

Just a reminder that the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal suffered significant damage, with great loss of life, from a B-29 bombing attack on August 7th 1945 (just 8 days before the Japanese surrender was announced). Does anyone know if they continued to operate and produce armaments for another 8 days until the war ended? I was under the impression that the arsenal ceased production after the bombing.

[SteveM]

Wikipedia says they never resumed production after the August 7th raid. 

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/豊川海軍工廠

 

No cross-reference for this factoid, so take it for what its worth. 

[Bruce Pennington]

So, it seems unlikely to me that the non-functional arsenal would be stamping these post-war souvenirs. 

 

Thomas has quoted the polisher interview in which he states that bundles of blades were inspected and stamped by Army and Navy, then sold in the 2 clubs.  Found here:

 My reply:

"

Hmmmm.  This also fits a witness interview about the RJT blades that were collected, inspected and stamped.  Interesting development, indeed.  So, the implication is that these "acceptance" inspectors were Army & Navy, possibly independent of any arsenal?  All 23 of my circled anchor stamped blades are not dated.  It is my theory that the majority of non-dated blades were made before the Army took control of the sword industry in 1942.  So, these stamped blades, along with the multitude of non-dated Showa and Seki blades could very well have been stamped by an inspection/acceptance stamping system broader or independant of individual arsenals.  In 1943, all three of these almost disappear and blades are stamped by arsenals mostly.

 

I had always just assumed that these inspectors were from the arsenals, and therefore the stamps were arsenal stamps.  We learned clearly that the Seki stamp was not military, and was leaning to the Showa being civil as well.  But in light of the witness, is sounds like the Showa and Circled Anchor very well could have been the Army and Navy inspectors referenced by the polisher.

Hmmmmm"

[PNSSHOGUN]

A "Warrior" stamp on a Kai Gunto signed Yoshisuke: https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/21156.html

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

A "Warrior" stamp on a Kai Gunto

That's a fabulous find, John, thank you!  Only the second one on record.  The other I have is in Type 98 fittings.  The mei seems to be different.  I'll post on Translation assistance to find out.

[Kiipu]

Just pulling this together in one place.  Two sizes of encircled anchor stamps are known so far, 4 & 6 mm.

 

4mm anchor stamp.

Help identifying (and possibly dating) sword

 

6mm anchor stamp.

Arsenal Stamps.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Kiipu - I don't see an anchor on your 6mm link.

 

Good idea adding the topic, thanks!  The navy stamping has been neglected for too long.