Kiipu Posted December 21, 2019 Report Posted December 21, 2019 Thomas, my Toyokawa anchor is 5.37 mm. If you include the circle it’s 6mm. Thank you for the measurement. I will pass it along to the concerned party. Quote
Kiipu Posted December 22, 2019 Report Posted December 22, 2019 福 FUKU Meaning unknown but it does show up twice on nakago mune. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/25687-mune-stamp/?do=findComment&comment=259498 http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-12?do=findComment&comment=279790 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted December 23, 2019 Report Posted December 23, 2019 福 FUKU Meaning unknown but it does show up twice on nakago mune. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/25687-mune-stamp/?do=findComment&comment=259498 http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/5999-arsenal-stamps/page-12?do=findComment&comment=279790 Thanks Thomas. I've noted that one in the Stamps Doc. General consensus is that it is an inspector stamp from the Fukuoka area, like the Gifu stamp. There were many smiths operating in that area. Though, that is speculation unless we (meaning you "wink") can find a document verifying this. Quote
Kiipu Posted December 23, 2019 Report Posted December 23, 2019 Thanks Thomas. I've noted that one in the Stamps Doc. General consensus is that it is an inspector stamp from the Fukuoka area, like the Gifu stamp. There were many smiths operating in that area. Though, that is speculation unless we (meaning you "wink") can find a document verifying this. I thought the stamp was only used by one swordsmith though, a Morimitsu 盛光? As a standalone character, 福 can mean fortune, blessing, luck, or wealth. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/25687-mune-stamp/?do=findComment&comment=279876 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted December 23, 2019 Report Posted December 23, 2019 According to Chris, quoting Marcus Sesko, Morimitsu was from Fukuoka. Since the lower mark is the 小 (ko) of Kokura, maybe the Fuku is intended to indicate the location of this particular inspector. I'm just brain-storming here, because I don't picture individual smiths placing a single kanji stamp on the mune of their own blades. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 Can't remember if this was covered but quite an elaborate stamp: https://www.Japanese-sword-katana.jp/katana/2010-1042.htm Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted December 27, 2019 Report Posted December 27, 2019 John, Had this from a book, but didn't have a good example - Now I do, thanks! 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 2, 2020 Report Posted January 2, 2020 I am working to clean up the discussion on my Stamps Doc of the Showa and Seki stamps, and have discovered a 1937 Kanenori with Showa stamp on Ohmura's site, http://ohmura-study.net/211.html stamped and thanks to Lev (Death Ace) a 1937 Yoshimichi Showa stamped https://www.christie...38-details.aspx Additionally, on and NMB thread, is a 1939 Kanemichi Showa stamped http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29719-sho-stamped-blade-dec-1939/?hl=%2B1939+%2Bshowa This is significant because, up to now, all discussions of the showa stamp put it in a narrow timeframe of '40-42. While it is certainly possible that the stamps were added at a later date than the blade was made (and the '39 has 2 mekugi ana, so the stamp could have been added at a refitting) they all appear, to me, to be the same age as the mei on each blade. This would be more in line with Ohmura's discussion claiming that the Seki Guild stopped using their seki stamp in '39 (because the shops working for Nagoya arsenal started using it) and were given the showa stamp to replace it. The dating is still off, though, as we can see on these blades, unless there is a totally unrelated reason someone created the showa stamp prior to the Govt edict that all non-traditionally made blades bear a stamp (which seems unlikely). This also presents a dating problem in that the oft discussed date for that Govt edict was 1938. Even if it were off by a year, and 1937 were the actual date, it would be surprising to see actual examples, like this, as in the Gunto-world it seems like it always takes a year or 2 from edict to street production. Sure wish we could get our hands on the actual Govt edict and/or the order giving the showa stamp to the Seki Guild! Quote
BANGBANGSAN Posted January 5, 2020 Report Posted January 5, 2020 Bruce I'd like to share some photos of 三笠刀 Mikasa To(This one is not mine)，you can add the marks on your chart. These swords were used steel from damaged cannon on Japanese warship 三笠(Mikasa)。 http://ohmura-study.net/204.html Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 5, 2020 Report Posted January 5, 2020 Bruce I'd like to share some photos of 三笠刀 Mikasa To(This one is not mine)，you can add the marks on your chart. These swords were used steel from damaged cannon on Japanese warship 三笠(Mikasa)。 http://ohmura-study.net/204.html Trystan, thanks! Do you know the meaning of the hotstamp? It isn't present on the examples found on Ohmura's page. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted January 5, 2020 Report Posted January 5, 2020 Looks a bit like what you see on officers dress hats of the era. Quote
BANGBANGSAN Posted January 5, 2020 Report Posted January 5, 2020 Trystan, thanks! Do you know the meaning of the hotstamp? It isn't present on the examples found on Ohmura's page. SmartSelect_20200105-034911_Chrome.jpg Sorry Bruce,I'm not sure what that stamp is it.Here is the info of Battleship Mikasa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mikasa Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 5, 2020 Report Posted January 5, 2020 Looks a bit like what you see on officers dress hats of the era. Do you mean this, John? I see why it made you think of it, but it doesn't appear to be the same. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted January 6, 2020 Report Posted January 6, 2020 Yes, not the same but perhaps it has similar significance military/navy wise? Quote
Stephen Posted January 6, 2020 Report Posted January 6, 2020 Probably my old eyes ...it doesn't look like a hot stamp to me. Any other pic at a angle? Quote
Kiipu Posted January 6, 2020 Report Posted January 6, 2020 I am working to clean up the discussion on my Stamps Doc of the Showa and Seki stamps, and have discovered a 1937 Kanenori with Showa stamp on Ohmura's site. http://ohmura-study.net/211.html Bruce, we pay you way too much money for these kinds of mistakes! The sword is dated October 1939. Instead of using a 四, a side-by-side 二 二 is used instead. 昭和十二二年十月日 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 6, 2020 Report Posted January 6, 2020 OMG! Thanks Thomas. So that makes the Kanenori - Oct '39; Kanemichi - Dec '39; and likely means the Yoshimichi on the Christie's Auction suspect. If they read the date wrong like I did, it' probably a '39 too. They don't show the nakago, but simply write, in text, the date (likely given to them wrongly from the owner). If you guys paid me more I could take some Japanese language classes! But NOoooO! The 3 blades still change the status-quo as all previous discussions of the beginnings of the Showa stamp state that the earliest date ever seen was late 1940. So this walks it back a year. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 6, 2020 Report Posted January 6, 2020 Probably my old eyes ...it doesn't look like a hot stamp to me. Any other pic at a angle? Trystan, and more pics of this stamp on the Mikasa kirk? Stephen - yeah, I can't tell either. I suspect it's a kakihan of a particuar smith, or maybe represents some tip-of-the-hat to a god, or something else. I'll put it down as "unknown" unless someone can clear it up for us. 1 Quote
BANGBANGSAN Posted January 7, 2020 Report Posted January 7, 2020 Trystan, and more pics of this stamp on the Mikasa kirk? Stephen - yeah, I can't tell either. I suspect it's a kakihan of a particuar smith, or maybe represents some tip-of-the-hat to a god, or something else. I'll put it down as "unknown" unless someone can clear it up for us. Bruce ,I‘m sorry ,only one photo for the stamp.This dagger is not mine. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 12, 2020 Report Posted January 12, 2020 Stamps Document 5.0 attached. I had hoped to rewrite the introductory discussions on the Showa, Star, and Seki stamps, but really cannot do a better job than the guys already quoted. So, I elliminated some duplicative discussions and added personal notes about some dates. Reduced the overall size by 2 pages. Small additions to hotstamps and Type 95 steel fuchi stamps, and some small adjustments to the Mantetsu discussion. Many thanks to all who continue to assist in making the discoveries about this part of gunto history! Stamp 5.0.pdf 2 Quote
george trotter Posted January 13, 2020 Report Posted January 13, 2020 Just read through your pdf compilation on markings etc Bruce...great work. I have a couple of comments on the Yamagami Munetoshi blades (Niigata RJT smith) in the page titled "stamped numbers". In this part I contributed to the Munetoshi "Matsu" stamp information and I now see that the "matsu" in a circle is mentioned in the very last pdf page as being (researched by Nick Komiya) to be a "private purchase & rental' number. If so, then Yamagami Munetoshi and his brother Akihisa, both great smiths of Niigata, sure hired out a lot of their swords, including those with a star on them. I say this as of the 15 blades by them I have seen in hand/or pics, 7 had 'matsu" stamps., Also in this same 'stamped numbers' paragraph I mention the use of "o154" on another tang by Kunishiro, an RJT of Aomori prefecture..on this I messed up...I said a couple of times that 'o' was a code for Aoyama prefecture...of course it is actually Aomori prefecture (can you correct?). Another minor point on fittings markings that is not included (that I could see) was one I think we discussed on NMB once...it was the stamping of small "kana and arabic numbers" on the fittings of Rinji Seshiki mounts on a Munetoshi blade I have (Rinji with star) numbered "matsu 1080" on the tang, with the number "i 403" stamped on all fittings (tsuba, 3 seppa, sayaguchi, hacho clip) and also on the base edge of the habaki itself...just thought I'd mention it as another NMB member posted pics of the same thing in a discussion once, so it is a "variation" to look for. I'm guessing, but probably just a fittings shop number as it is not connected to the tang mark "matsu 1080". Mine and the one on nmb (can't remember smith) are the only two I know about. You're doing great work Bruce...keep it up. Regards, Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 13, 2020 Report Posted January 13, 2020 George, I've fixed the Aomori typos. On the koshirae stamps, I'll add your discussion, but it would aid the discussion if I had a good picture for an example. Do you have one you can attach? If not, how about a link to the NMB disucussion, maybe there are pictures from the other guy you mentioned. As to Nick's published order about stamping rented/private purchase - there have been a couple of other "orders" that Nick has found that have no actual examples proving that they were put into effect. This is a third one. He had one declaring that Type 95 serial numbers, when they reached the 100,000 range use a Kanji for thousand (or hundred thousand; I'm going by memory) so "1[kanji]234". We have hundreds of gunto now and NONE of them used that nomenclature. It may be that the stamping was never used, at least we have no known examples that it was. But speaking of that stamp, I compared a Matsu kanji with his stamp, and to me, they don't look the same. Take a look. Are they different kanji, or is the difference simply stylistic? Quote
george trotter Posted January 14, 2020 Report Posted January 14, 2020 Thanks for fixing article. About the koshirae stamping...left style of matsu is close but I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the style, after all, those 2 examples you/Nick show are just printing type. Take a look at mine below...this may be (pretty certain) the stamp of the Yamagami bros. themselves...pretty sure it is the same on all their tangs - I think they put it on, but really, I don't know, other than to say that only the Yamagami bros swords have it (so far as I have seen). Here below also is a pic of "the other nmb member's" fittings...you will notice they are 'O' with kanji numbers except on the back of the habaki where they are arabic numbers. I can't remember who this nmb member was or the post. I haven't got a pic of mine (swords packed away just now) but my Rinji Seishiki mounts markings are the same except all my fittings are kana 'i" with arabic numbers as "i 403". These are on the blade now discussed below. Matsu stamp on Rinji Seshiki mounted blade by (Yamagami) Munetoshi with RJT star, dated 18/5. All fittings incl habaki stamped "i 403" but tang stamped "Matsu in circle 1080". This matsu stamp appears on his and his brother Akihisa's swords, both private order and RJT. It is seen as follows (in date order). Most are from pics of swords or swords I have seen, but don't own: Akihisa 17/2 star matsu 542 Rinji " ? matsu 61 Rinji Munetoshi 17/4 matsu 11 Rinji " 17/11 star matsu 422 ? " 17/11 star matsu 433 Rinji " 18/1 star matsu 508 Type 98 * Akihisa 18/3 star matsu 819 Rinji Munetoshi 18/5 star matsu 1080 Rinji fittings/habaki stamped i 403* Akihisa 18/10 star matsu 1377 Rinji 19/3 onwards the RJT kana/number on tang system is seen. * = GT coll. These are the tang markings that precede the list above. I don't know why some numbers in these lists are "out of number sequence" and "out of date sequence": Munetoshi 16/7 106 (no star or Matsu) Akihisa 16/9 249 " Type 98 Munetoshi 16/9 308 " " Akihisa 16/12 566 " Rinji Hope this helps. Let me know if you MUST have pics of my koshirae markings and I will dig them out. Regards, Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 14, 2020 Report Posted January 14, 2020 Thanks George, I'll file the pics for use on the Koshirae markings. I remember reading that discussion and had assumed the "O" was the number "zero" at the time. But if you have other examples with "Ta" and "i" at the beginning, I can see that the "o" was likely a letter as you say. In your original post you said ""ta" may have identified Niigata Pref. and "o" may have meant Aomori Pref. (I have a number "o"154 on a tang by Aomori RJT Nagao Kunishiro dated 19/2). We just don't know yet." Do you have a theory as to what the "i" represents? Finally, I'm assuming both the Ta and the i were actually in katakana? But the "O" was in Romanji (english). Not unheard of, of course, and many gunto show a mixture of katakana and romanji. Quote
Kiipu Posted January 14, 2020 Report Posted January 14, 2020 As to Nick's published order about stamping rented/private purchase ... . Just in case one does show up, here is the character 私. The New Nelson number is 4124, page 805. For additional information, see the link below. http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/kanji-use-queston-728958/ Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 Thanks Thomas, that's actually quite a good example of that Private-purchase stamp! To me, it's not the same as the Matsu stamp: 私 Quote
george trotter Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 I remember reading that discussion and had assumed the "O" was the number "zero" at the time. But if you have other examples with "Ta" and "i" at the beginning, I can see that the "o" was likely a letter as you say. In your original post you said ""ta" may have identified Niigata Pref. and "o" may have meant Aomori Pref. (I have a number "o"154 on a tang by Aomori RJT Nagao Kunishiro dated 19/2). We just don't know yet." Do you have a theory as to what the "i" represents? Finally, I'm assuming both the Ta and the i were actually in katakana? But the "O" was in Romanji (english). Not unheard of, of course, and many gunto show a mixture of katakana and romanji. Hi Bruce, Yes and no...I must correct/clarify my post, the letter "O" on those fittings is probably a zero. That pic with "O" in romaji and the numbers in kanji is not "the other NMB member's sword fittings" it is on one of my swords Doh!!! That discussion on NMB was with a member who had "O" fittings (if I remember correctly) but on a different high quality mounted sword. I think we agreed that his/my swords were probably mounted in the same shop. The 'i' 403 number on fittings...as it differs from the tang 'matsu' 1080...is probably a fittings shop number, like 'O" number is. Those fittings in pic come off a gunto mounted mumei blade by (I assess) Aizu Kanesada 11 dai c.1890. High quality mounts, cut-through guard and 8 seppa (as was the NMB member's sword). Looking at it again and the numbers behind the habaki, I can say the "O" certainly seems to be used as a zero. The fittings look like a romaji "O" but the arabic numbers on the rear of the habaki look like "0314"...so it appears to mean "0" when used with arabic numbers, not "O" . Maybe, the western "O" is just a punch they used as Japanese numbers don't have zero and they just grabbed a 'zero' looking punch? My "gut feeling" is it means ZERO. The katakana on tangs (in front of numbers) is a RJT code...I assume they mean prefectures as I have seen a couple of smiths with them and they do seem to be "grouped" in the same area (I did keep notes, but where?). They do not 'phonetically' mean the prefecture, they are just allocated as an "alphabetic" identifier IMHO (such as in USA they would use A = NY, B = Calif, C = Ill. etc?. I own the following: Nagao Kunishiro Aomori star katakana 'o' 154 dated 19/2. Type 98 Very little info on him...need to see more RJT swords from Aomori RJT smiths to check 'o' prefix theory (memory says I have seen a couple). Yamagami Munetoshi Niigata star " 'ta' 2356 dated 19/3 Rinji Have not seen many late war blades but when this 'ta' starts there is only a star stamp with it, the 'matsu' stops (number still the smith's tally number with a new prefix?)... Just some other observations for your interest: Takashima Kunihide Kyoto star (on mune ) 98 dated 19/8 Rinji GT Coll. " " " " 90 dated 19/8 " NBTHK hozon " " " " 99 dated 19/8 " I have looked through my notes but can't find any more references to RJT tang numbers. I think this is a job for you Bruce. Look up as many RJT (late war) blades as you can find and see if they have a "katakana/number" code and see if they are grouped. From my own casual observations over time I can say that: Osaka/Okayama/Kyoto area RJT seem to have small numbers on nakago mune, but whether a RJT mark or a polisher or mounter or smith tally mark I can;t say. Gifu/Seki/Nagoya RJT smiths seem to only have a small 'seki', 'na' (Nagoya) or 'gi' (Gifu) stamp. Don't recall any 'tally' code/numbers here. I remember seeing a Seki RJT in Type 98 dated 1944? with the 'fittings numbers' in kanji tho' (from memory Seki Mitsunobu fittings O127? this was in last 6 months on NMB) . Final word...Just thinking out loud (Nick hates this)...but could these tang marks be the RJT 'shinsa' record number? I mean, each RJT blade was 'shinsa'd" so maybe this is the RJT shinsa-in's record number in case a sword should fail in the future the inspector who passed it would be identifiable...just thinking...sorry all! Hope there is something of value here, Regards 1 Quote
george trotter Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 Found another pic of my mumei blade's fittings/habaki numbers with O and 0. Something tells me there is a mountain of research to do to get answers to all this. Quote
waljamada Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 https://ibb.co/album/grDMBF Got a seki stamp. Can anyone read the maker? Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 15, 2020 Report Posted January 15, 2020 Adam, the guys at Translation Assistance could hammer this out real fast for you: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/ Quote
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