Gendai?

[loiner1965]

  Kevin said:

  loiner1965 said:

showato . . . when connected to a military sword eg gunto then its machine made and oil quenched....

 

my kanetoshi with the hot stamp and ko-itame grain and suguhu hamon with ko-nie i believe to be hand made and folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel and not tamahagane.

 

 

Surely the second observation contradicts the first para. If the Kanetoshi is handmade, folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel or domestically produced western-type steel then it is, by definition, not a nihonto but a showato. However, it is not a machine-made showato. One would therefore deduce that not all showato were made by machine or oil-quenched, and the argument that they are is an over-generalisation; true in many cases, but not all.

 

Kevin

fully understand what you are saying kevin but the majority of nihonto collectors refer to showato blades as machine made factory blades where as the proper term for showato just means the era regardless of how the blade is made

[Kevin]

  loiner1965 said:

fully understand what you are saying kevin but the majority of nihonto collectors refer to showato blades as machine made factory blades where as the proper term for showato just means the era regardless of how the blade is made

 

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi?

 

Kevin

[loiner1965]

  Kevin said:

  loiner1965 said:

fully understand what you are saying kevin but the majority of nihonto collectors refer to showato blades as machine made factory blades where as the proper term for showato just means the era regardless of how the blade is made

 

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi?

 

Kevin

simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D

[cabowen]

In some circles, at one point in time, anything with a Showa date was called a Showa-to, which was a term of derision. Then, after a little enlightenment, only blades with a Showa stamp were called Showa-to. Since, as has been noted, not all non-traditionally made blades bear a Sho stamp the term Showa-to seems inappropriate. Gunto is another term used and comes with a negative connotation. We know not all gunto were created equal, with both non- and traditional blades made during the war as gunto. The easiest terminology may simply be traditional and non-traditional. Non-traditional can be further broken down into machine made and hand made. That about covers it, doesn't it???

[loiner1965]

  cabowen said:

In some circles, at one point in time, anything with a Showa date was called a Showa-to, which was a term of derision. Then, after a little enlightenment, only blades with a Showa stamp were called Showa-to. Since, as has been noted, not all non-traditionally made blades bear a Sho stamp the term Showa-to seems inappropriate. Gunto is another term used and comes with a negative connotation. We know not all gunto were created equal, with both non- and traditional blades made during the war as gunto. The easiest terminology may simply be traditional and non-traditional. Non-traditional can be further broken down into machine made and hand made. That about covers it, doesn't it???

i believe chris your explaination covers it better than mine.....just goes to show nothing is simple as it first seems......many thanks for your participation to this thread which i found most interesting

[Kevin]

  loiner1965 said:

  Kevin said:

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi?

simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D

 

My head hurts! :D That translates as a "handmade machine made sword". :D

 

Perhaps it might be an idea, for clarity, to divide the swords of the period into traditionally made (gendaito) and non-traditional made by a variety of means, including by hand (showato). The latter can then be subdivided, as in Fuller and Gregory, into their various methods of production. Though I take the excellent point by Chris, made just as I was about to post this , that using the terms 'traditional' and non-traditional on their own might be more helpful.

 

Question is though, to follow on from that post, I presume that 'not stamped with a sho stamp, but stamped with another stamp' was meant. Otherwise, how does one distinguish between an unstamped handmade non-traditional blade and a gendaito? Do we have hard evidence of unstamped non-traditional blades that have a hada and a water-quenched hamon? Cos if they have that, the only difference is going to be in the steel used. Or to turn it around the other way, what evidence do we have that they are not gendaito?

 

Sorry if I appear to be nitpicking, but I had 6 years of university tutors banging into my head "first define your terms!" It gets to be a habit of thinking.

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

  Kevin said:

Otherwise, how does one distinguish between an unstamped handmade non-traditional blade and a gendaito?

Kevin

 

Firstly, through experience. Second, by knowing the background of the maker.

 

None of the professional smiths made their living making non-traditional blades. There are those that did experiment (even Kurihara Akihide made some blades with electrolytic steel and so marked them) but this is a handful at most. One always needs to go to the blade. If it is an excellent blade with top quality workmanship and you can't tell then maybe it doesn't matter. If it is a mediocre blade, why be concerned?

 

Again, most of the trouble comes from Seki. Avoid Seki blades and you are nearly out of the woods....

[David Flynn]

Avoid Seki blades, seems a bit derogatory. e.g. Wantanabe Kanenaga, Nakata Kanehide and Kuwayama Kanetaka who were definately Gendai Smiths, Used Seki in their inscriptions.

[cabowen]

  David Flynn said:

Avoid Seki blades, seems a bit derogatory. e.g. Wantanabe Kanenaga, Nakata Kanehide and Kuwayama Kanetaka who were definately Gendai Smiths, Used Seki in their inscriptions.

 

Of the roughly 200 or so people making blades in Seki, you have named three worthy of attention. There may be a couple more but I can't think of them, which tells me something...Subtract Watanabe Kanenaga who was an old man making few swords during the war, and you are down to 1%-1.5% of Seki blades were made by quality smiths. To me, that makes it a safe bet for those less knowledgeable to simply ignore Seki blades in general.

[loiner1965]

  Kevin said:

  loiner1965 said:

  Kevin said:

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi?

simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D

 

My head hurts! :D That translates as a "handmade machine made sword". :D

 

Perhaps it might be an idea, for clarity, to divide the swords of the period into traditionally made (gendaito) and non-traditional made by a variety of means, including by hand (showato). The latter can then be subdivided, as in Fuller and Gregory, into their various methods of production. Though I take the excellent point by Chris, made just as I was about to post this , that using the terms 'traditional' and non-traditional on their own might be more helpful.

 

Question is though, to follow on from that post, I presume that 'not stamped with a sho stamp, but stamped with another stamp' was meant. Otherwise, how does one distinguish between an unstamped handmade non-traditional blade and a gendaito? Do we have hard evidence of unstamped non-traditional blades that have a hada and a water-quenched hamon? Cos if they have that, the only difference is going to be in the steel used. Or to turn it around the other way, what evidence do we have that they are not gendaito?

 

Sorry if I appear to be nitpicking, but I had 6 years of university tutors banging into my head "first define your terms!" It gets to be a habit of thinking.

if your head hurts now imagine how i feel....i also have a katana by fukomoto kanemune who was the son of amahide the factory owner...kanemune also made some swords with the fabled north china railway stamp the wing winged wheel etc....it is also said he signed other swords with different mei on including my kanetoshi lol.......now my head hurts

[drbvac]

Mine doesn't hurt but it is spinning a bit - I think I need to make and/or look at some type of table with materials on one side, stamps on the other and try and cross reference them.

[GregD]

my three cents-----Showa stamped,oil quenched

[David Flynn]

I think it must come down to this. If a sword has a showa or seki stamp, it will not pass shinsa and be issued with origami. If one likes the sword and it doesn't matter to one if it may recieve origami, fine. If one is collecting Gendai, then swords with these stamps are to be avoided. So back to my original question. Does the sword by Kanemichi listed on ebay as "Traditionaly made", with a Showa stamp rate as a Gendai? I believe not.

[Stephen]

Seki showa

[cabowen]

  David Flynn said:

So back to my original question. Does the sword by Kanemichi listed on ebay as "Traditionaly made", with a Showa stamp rate as a Gendai? I believe not.

 

I think this has been answered at least a couple of times already...Once more, with feeling:

 

Showa stamp= not gendai-to=non-traditional blade=not nihon-to=no kantei-sho=no import into Japan

[Kevin]

  drbvac said:

Mine doesn't hurt but it is spinning a bit - I think I need to make and/or look at some type of table with materials on one side, stamps on the other and try and cross reference them.

 

Unfortunately we don't have a concrete list of materials used. All we've got are stamps and miscellaneous (and probably incomplete) sources. It would help research enormously if we did have an extensive database of materials that could be cross-referenced to stamps. However, firstly we'd need either some non-destructive method of testing the steel composition (x-ray diffraction??) or some method that used a few micrograms of sample. We'd also need the assistance of, for example, the metallurgy department of a university, which might happen if you got both them and the history department interested in the results. It would, for instance, provide the history lot with information concerning the flow of raw materials to sword-making. However, you'd also need lots of folk to volunteer their swords, which might not happen.

 

The results would be interesting to study. :-)

 

As for whether this is a gendaito or not - well I don't think it is and I for one would not sell it as such.

 

Kevin

[Brian]

I don't think there is room for debate. It is not. Simple. In these matters, we bow to the official line every time, and this is the NBTHK..who would NOT pass it. That is all really. Trying to box things into neat little categories is a Western thing. Doesn't matter if the smith used 20% tamahagane, 40% railroad tracks and 40% old pots and pans. In the grand scheme of things, if it shows good forging, good hamon, good hada and quality workmanship, then it is a good sword. Not much else matters.

Does it really matter who considers it what? I would put it to you that if someone is collecting WW2 swords then they have a good interest in the militaria side anyways. Those that don't want to debate the origins of their blade would be concentrating on Koto/Shinto anyways.

The word Gendaito and Showato are made up by collectors to fit things into neat categorisation boxes. Seems a bit silly arguing about putting things into those boxes then, doesn't it? If we want a definitive opinion...we revert to the Japanese govt, and shinsa. And those standards are clear.

So no. This isn't Gendaito by definition.

 

Greg....nice hada there. Have you got a pic of the stamp? I guess this proves once again that most rules have exceptions.

 

Brian

[drbvac]

Good synopsis - thats why you are a moderator - my Kanefusa is not gendai either and I wouldnt sell it as such either but it is by a known war time smith and I probably won't sell it at all :D

[cabowen]

How do these compare, on a craftsmanship basis?

 

 

[drbvac]

Well for sure the detail and scales are crisper on the top picture. That said I have seen much worse than both and on much older blades. I haven't seen a lot of any type of horimono on showata - so even if inferior craftsmanship - not a lot of wartime smiths seem to even have attempted same - even if machined.

 

I have often wondered why anyone would have even bothered unless to hide a flaw, but here I don't think that was the case - just for practice?

[cabowen]

The top one was done by hand by one of the top horimono-shi of the war era. I have heard that they were machine cutting horimono in Seki during the war. Is it possible the bottom example was machine cut?

[drbvac]

Chris: There seem to be chisel marks on parts of it especially around the perimeter - but - what do I know !

 

There is a blade on e-bay with a horimono almost identical and claimed to be Tadatsuna showata -

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %26otn%3D2

[Brian]

No..he claims the sword is early Edo period, but the koshirae is Showa.

I think the bottom horimono is far from the junk we often see used to cover flaws. I have my doubts about machine done horimono this extravagant. Perhaps they had people doing it by hand on demand for those that had the money?

The question is....is the bottom blade a Showato? If so..that is a pretty good horimono to find on one. I guess like everything...if you had the spare cash, there were people willing to "pimp my blade" :D

 

Brian

[cabowen]

I don't have many details about the machine cutting of horimono during the war in seki...I wonder if they used something like a dremel and then finished things by hand???? Wish I could find more info on this...Guess I need to talk to some of the old timers in Seki or some of my horimono-shi contacts...

 

It is hard to tell the quality in the lower shot because it is a bit out of focus but I suspect it is not fully hand cut. I agree that I have seen far worse examples...

 

Horimono were added for various reasons-from the nefarious -hiding a flaw, to the religious-icons of faith and protection. To the unknowing, a flashy carving often inspires awe and is a great sales point on the cheaper blades; Japanese swords are not immune from the usual marketing ploys.

[drbvac]

 

 

Here's some more - I may see if I can zoom in on one - and another of the "hamon" on the non-traditional, non machine made, non-gendai, showata