Gendai?

[David Flynn]

This sword is being sold on ebay by Some one who is a member of this forum. The ad states it is a traditional Gendai, even though it has a Showa stamp. Any thoughts? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

[estcrh]

According to discussions here and else were that I have read, this sword is non traditional in some way, it may be hand forged and water quenched but it was stamped in order to signify that some element of the sword made it non traditional...possibly the type of steel used?

[cabowen]

The Showa stamp is on the blade for a reason. They weren't applied haphazardly.

[lonely panet]

good morning all, any blade with a showa stap is a showato blade. this means the blade was not made traditionally, made or it wasnt made by traditional materials like tamahagne. ie it may have been folded and have soft core and hard outer skin but the iron may have been imported or not made fro the traditional tatara.

 

Regards Hamish

[loiner1965]

good morning all, any blade with a showa stap is a showato blade. this means the blade was not made traditionally, made or it wasnt made by traditional materials like tamahagne. ie it may have been folded and have soft core and hard outer skin but the iron may have been imported or not made fro the traditional tatara.

 

Regards Hamish

some showa or seki stamped blades are folded and water quenched too as i have one which displays a fine itame grain and a lovely suguhu hamon....we must remember that Japan inported foreign steel from the dutch in the 16 th century so many fine nihonto blades will not be traditionally made either.....who can tell if a sword was made from tamahagane or foreign steel without destroying the blade?

[drdata]

some showa or seki stamped blades are folded and water quenched too as i have one which displays a fine itame grain and a lovely suguhu hamon....we must remember that Japan inported foreign steel from the dutch in the 16 th century so many fine nihonto blades will not be traditionally made either.....who can tell if a sword was made from tamahagane or foreign steel without destroying the blade?

 

A good point, though I'm far too new at this to have much to offer.

 

The modern Japaneses sword smith's book indicates that many modern smiths, by their own interview/admission, still mix "old iron" into the NBTHK's sanctified tamahagne. As far as I can tell these modern works, just as the old that in some cases boasted about the use of barbarian iron, are considered nihonto.

 

At what percentage of tamahgne do we draw the line? Or, is it just the dreaded wartime works that are held to this standard?

 

Regards

[cabowen]

While I hesitate to say "never" when talking about Japanese swords, it is about as certain as it gets to say that a showa stamped blade is a non-traditionally made sword. This is the whole point to the showa stamping as instituted by the Japanese government. They would not haphazardly place a showa stamp on a blade that was traditionally made, nor would someone purposely place one on a traditionally made blade due to the fact that showa stamped blades were not as valued as traditionally made blades. If anything, there are probably unstamped non-traditionally made blades passed off as traditionally made blades.

 

Using western steel in the 16th/17th century is not comparable for three reasons: that steel was not the same as what was coming from western smelters in the 20th century; smiths in the early period were putting the steel through the oroshigane process which drove out impurities and adjusted the carbon level, and they were water quenching. None of this was done with the western mill steel used in showato.

 

Many people have sworn to me that they have a showa stamped blade that is traditionally made. Every one to date has been clearly non-traditionally made upon examination.

[loiner1965]

While I hesitate to say "never" when talking about Japanese swords, it is about as certain as it gets to say that a showa stamped blade is a non-traditionally made sword. This is the whole point to the showa stamping as instituted by the Japanese government. They would not haphazardly place a showa stamp on a blade that was traditionally made, nor would someone purposely place one on a traditionally made blade due to the fact that showa stamped blades were not as valued as traditionally made blades. If anything, there are probably unstamped non-traditionally made blades passed off as traditionally made blades.

 

Using western steel in the 16th/17th century is not comparable for three reasons: that steel was not the same as what was coming from western smelters in the 20th century; smiths in the early period were putting the steel through the oroshigane process which drove out impurities and adjusted the carbon level, and they were water quenching. None of this was done with the western mill steel used in showato.

 

Many people have sworn to me that they have a showa stamped blade that is traditionally made. Every one to date has been clearly non-traditionally made upon examination.

hi chris...

please refer to our previous postings..viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7545&p=60993&hilit=kanetoshi#p60993 i will have to take more detailed pics of my sword as its identical to the one in the ad for sale but mine is in fresh polish and as his personal hot stamp on too......your experience on nihonto is second to none and any info you have will be most welcomed

[drbvac]

This has been on the site hundreds of time and as stated further up the line the two factors for "non-traditional" as far as I can tell are 1. Steel and 2. Method of developing the hamon. SO - IMHO - .please correct me - it happens all the time.

 

"IF - using steel that is NOT tamagahane but water quenched they would stamp it - and - if oil quenched - doubly non-traditional. I can't imagine a war time smith using tamagahame and oil quenching but how could you tell.

 

I am almost positive I have a Kanefusa 23rd blade that as it is stamped and has to be "non-traditional" however it has what I am sure is a water quenched appearance so it is must be the steel.

 

I know Chris has stated and I know he is the man for these but I wish I could send this blade to him - others on the board have stated it sure as heck looks water quenched. I don't know maybe he made this one on his day off at home !

[loiner1965]

most collectors class traditionally made blades as being tamahagane and water quenched thats why i always class my blades as hand made.....they say oil quenching is actually better than being done in water but it doesnt show alot of activities.

[cabowen]

During the war they were experimenting with all different types of steels and construction methods. It is usually thought that a traditionally made sword, or nihon-to, must be made of tamahagane/oroshigane, forged and folded repeatedly, and water quenched.

 

A blade may be made of western steel, folded a few times (called hantan), water quenched, and look like a traditionally made blade, but not be. There are many possibilities.

 

One thing to look at is the mei-buri and the nakago finish. If the mei is poorly cut and the nakago poorly shaped and finished, it is usually not a blade made by a professionally trained smith and thus odds are it is not a traditionally made blade.

[Jamie]

most collectors class traditionally made blades as being tamahagane and water quenched thats why i always class my blades as hand made.....they say oil quenching is actually better than being done in water but it doesnt show alot of activities.

 

 

You may be right, but I've read a bit differently. Oil doesn't put nearly as much stress on the metal as a Water quench and therefore tests the construction to a lesser degree. It doesn't cool the metal as quickly, thereby reducing the stress. The blade not cracking during the quench is a sign of good construction. During the war, there was less time for them to break, and oil does get the job done. I've also read that tool steels react better to oil, so that may be a contributing factor as well. Im no expert, just sharing some info I've read.

[cabowen]

most collectors class traditionally made blades as being tamahagane and water quenched thats why i always class my blades as hand made.....they say oil quenching is actually better than being done in water but it doesnt show alot of activities.

 

 

You may be right, but I've read a bit differently. Oil doesn't put nearly as much stress on the metal as a Water quench and therefore tests the construction to a lesser degree. It doesn't cool the metal as quickly, thereby reducing the stress. The blade not cracking during the quench is a sign of good construction. During the war, there was less time for them to break, and oil does get the job done. I've also read that tool steels react better to oil, so that may be a contributing factor as well. Im no expert, just sharing some info I've read.

 

Hamon formation depends on several factors, one of which is the cooling rate during the quench. Different steels require different cooling rates to form martensite (hamon). Some steels will form a hamon at a slower, less stressful, cooling rate, obtained via a quench in oil. Water quenches produce a fast and stressful cooling rate which leads to more cracked blades-thus smiths needs more skill and experience to water quench blades without failure. Even mukansa level smiths today will have cracks in a good portion of blades. The western steels used in gunto quench well in oil, thereby reducing the skill level while increasing repeatability and the success rate. This is but one reason why they were used. Oil quenches do not, in general with the steels used, produce bright, active hamon compared to water quenched blades. They are usually quite devoid of activity.....

[David Flynn]

It still comes down to this point, is the sword being advertised, a Gendai or not? I personally believe, if the sword has a Shower or Seki stamp, then NO.

I am also under the impression that, except for the Tatara at the Yasukuni Shrine, there was hardly any Tamahagane available and that many of the swordsmiths (e.g. Yoshichicka) made their own steel. The swords made by these smiths(not using Tamahagane) without stamps, are still classed as Gendai/ traditional swords. i.e. Hada, Hamon and Hataraki.

[Kevin]

To follow on from Chris's comments, some alloy steels won't produce a hamon at all on differential hardening, because components in the steel prevent the formation of a hamon.

 

A number of tool steels are designed to be oil quenched and will badly distort or crack if water quenched. The idea behind it is that oil quenching lowers distortion on larger parts or parts that need minimal distortion when hardening. Oil quenching also allows metallurgists making these steels to increase the manganese content, thus improving wear resistance, but also increasing the likelihood of cracking in a water quench. Oil quenching is therefore necessary.

 

Examples of oil quenched tool steels are O1 and D2 which are also good blade steels; very wear resistant as well as holding an extremely good edge. O1 has been around, it seems, forever. The manufacturers have now introduced air-quenching steels as well. It is probably impossible to differentially harden these.

 

Actually the presence of managanese is one possible way that you might check if a sword was made from tamahagane or, for example, railway tracks made of Swedish iron by way of a puddling furnace and the cementation process. Shouldn't take much more than a few filings from the nakago.

 

Kevin

[Kevin]

Hopefully this may shed some light on matters. Firstly, I prefer the term 'western-type steel', since it does not imply importation from the West. Japan had a good steel industry. In any case, importing from the West would have been impossible during the Pacific War.

 

I'm not sure that I'd be too dogmatic about how the smiths treated western-type steels. Sure, most of those we see now wouldn't have been folded. However, the law requiring stamps was introduced in 1933 precisely because it was impossible to tell the difference between swords made traditionally from tamahagane and some swords made from western-type steels. However, the system wasn't fully implemented until 1940. That implies that some smiths were using traditional processes with western-type steels. It also suggests that some non-traditional swords may not have been stamped.

 

I've also read a smith's account of forging swords from old railway tracks – it may be in one of Fuller & Gregory's books. The railway tracks concerned were made of Meiji period Swedish steel. The smith mentions carrying out controlled decarburisation in order to produce the core steel. I would presume that they used the orishigane process for this. It also suggests that he was using the steel to make swords with a traditional construction.

 

Now the point about 19th century Swedish steel railway tracks is that they were made from almost pure iron from a puddling furnace (burns out all the sulphur, phosphorous and carbon) that is then put through the cementation process (baking with a given amount of charcoal to give blister steel) and subsequently repeatedly forge-welded to remove the slag and get a consistent carbon content of 0.7% - higher than many Japanese swords. Because of the process of folding and forge-welding they had an inherent hada. However, they also contained some manganese (standard railway track specification until fairly recently). Whilst manganese increases the tensile strength, wear resistance and hardenability of the steel (and, if I recall, the degree of through hardening), it also affects the likelihood of cracking in a water quench. However, if you can handle such a steel in the traditional manner, you'd wind up with a particularly vicious and very strong cutter.

 

Incidentally, this wasn't new. The Chinese had puddling furnaces by the 1st century AD, long before the West discovered it. I'm surprised that the Japanese didn't have them. Tamahagane would have been an ideal feedstock and you could control the carbon content absolutely.

 

Problems in water quenching have many origins, but a major factor appears to be the water. Very pure water works whilst hard water doesn't. Brine, which I've used, works very well by breaking up the vapour jacket that forms round the blade, as does agitation. Workmanship and quenching temperature is another factor. See http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=15177 for a discussion. However, there's no reason why a competent smith should not be able to water quench western-type steels unless they were utterly unsuitable (e.g. O1). They wouldn't, of necessity, have had to use oil quenching, unless they lacked the skill or unless they were using an oil-quenching steel. Oil quenching a water quenching steel results in crap. Bad heat treatment will wreck a good steel.

 

As for the particular sword in question, I'd think it wasn't traditional in some way. However, not having it to hand I'd not even begin to guess how.

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

Hopefully this may shed some light on matters. Firstly, I prefer the term 'western-type steel', since it does not imply importation from the West. Japan had a good steel industry. In any case, importing from the West would have been impossible during the Pacific War.

 

Japan actually imported large amounts of steel from the west prior to the war.

 

However, there's no reason why a competent smith should not be able to water quench western-type steels unless they were utterly unsuitable (e.g. O1). They wouldn't, of necessity, have had to use oil quenching, unless they lacked the skill or unless they were using an oil-quenching steel. Kevin

 

Key words are "competent" and "skill". Most, if not all, showato were made in factories by people not trained as traditional swordsmiths.....

[drbvac]

Well not to beat a dead horse but were there blades made before 1930 that were cold stamped after or were they all stamped in the foundry? The showa stamp on this is half pressed and maybe isnt showa cause the corners are all rounded - were there acceptance stamps similar that indicated the blade could be mounted in gunto mounts and used in the service?

 

In light of Chris' comments on nakago I will re-post a couple of pictures some of the new members may not have seen.

[Kevin]

Japan actually imported large amounts of steel from the west prior to the war.

 

They were however also making their own steel prior to the war - in 1937, nearly 6.5 million tons of it, rising to nearly 9 million tons of it in 1943. I can't find figures for steel imports prior to the war though. However, unless we know whether a specific sword used domestic or imported steel, using the term "western steel" may have unwarranted implications. "Western-type" is better.

 

Key words are "competent" and "skill". Most, if not all, showato were made in factories by people not trained as traditional swordsmiths.....

 

Not all, surely . Sure, there were a lot that were machine made, such as the NCO swords, and factory production is going to be more prolific than other methods. However, not all showato are equal. There are still plenty of surviving stamped swords made by smiths. Slough has got more than a few listed as making both gendaito and showato and some were quite productive. There's that frequently quoted line about certain smiths making both good and bad. Now if they could make gendaito, they had no difficulty in doing a differential hardening using water - so why did they also use oil hardening? Perhaps we need to look at the steels they were using.

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

However, unless we know whether a specific sword used domestic or imported steel, using the term "western steel" may have unwarranted implications. "Western-type" is better.

 

That makes sense....

Key words are "competent" and "skill". Most, if not all, showato were made in factories by people not trained as traditional swordsmiths.....

 

Not all, surely . Sure, there were a lot that were machine made, such as the NCO swords, and factory production is going to be more prolific than other methods. However, not all showato are equal. There are still plenty of surviving stamped swords made by smiths. Slough has got more than a few listed as making both gendaito and showato and some were quite productive. There's that frequently quoted line about certain smiths making both good and bad. Now if they could make gendaito, they had no difficulty in doing a differential hardening using water - so why did they also use oil hardening? Perhaps we need to look at the steels they were using.

 

Kevin

 

There were some trained smiths running factories that produced showa-to but there were indeed very very few professional smiths making showato. There was no reason for them to make showato when they could make traditional blades, which fetched much more money. When one surveys the work of smiths from the Gassan group to the Horii smiths, from the Minatogawa Yasukuni Jinja smiths, Nihonto Gakuin, the Denshujo, and all the classical smithing schools and groups, you don't find any of these smiths making showato. I can't say I have ever seen a showa stamped blade made by a first class, or even second class, bona fide smith. I would be most interested in any oshigata showing the contrary...I agree some showato are nicer than others but the bottom line is none of them are considered nihonto.

 

There may have been some Seki smiths who made both but there were again, very few trained, professional smiths in Seki. Most of those making showato were blacksmiths, tool makers, and the like who switched to "sword making" during the war because of the income it produced. These were not professionally trained sword smiths and when looking at a showato, it shows. I suppose it is entirely possible that some of these people actually made some traditional blades as well but there is little chance they would be on the level of professionally trained smith's work.

 

I hesitate to say this because of the work that it took to produce, but Slough's book is not exactly a definitive reference.....

[Kevin]

When one surveys the work of smiths from the Gassan group to the Horii smiths, from the Minatogawa Yasukuni Jinja smiths, Nihonto Gakuin, the Denshujo, and all the classical smithing schools and groups, you don't find any of these smiths making showato.

 

But was that because such groups had easier access to tamahagane, and therefore no need to find alternative steels? Yasukuni, for example, had its own tatara. No problem of supply there.

 

I can't say I have ever seen a showa stamped blade made by a first class, or even second class, bona fide smith. I would be most interested in any oshigata showing the contrary...

 

I'll keep my eyes open. :-D

 

I agree some showato are nicer than others but the bottom line is none of them are considered nihonto.

 

Oh agreed. They are non-traditional in some way, and therefore not nihonto. I was just pointing out that the construction of some (not most) was a bit more complicated that it might seem; one smith, by his own account, may have been using puddled Western steel in orishigane. There's also the reported reason behind the introduction of tang stamps, which suggests some were good enough for the authorities to fear that they could be confused with nihonto.

 

I've an interest in the subject and the techniques used. That's partially due to me making a number of Japanese-style blades for martial artists back in the early to mid 80s and partially due to sheer curiosity. :-D

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

When one surveys the work of smiths from the Gassan group to the Horii smiths, from the Minatogawa Yasukuni Jinja smiths, Nihonto Gakuin, the Denshujo, and all the classical smithing schools and groups, you don't find any of these smiths making showato.

 

But was that because such groups had easier access to tamahagane, and therefore no need to find alternative steels? Yasukuni, for example, had its own tatara. No problem of supply there.

 

Professional smiths and schools had access, the others didn't. When the Jumei Tosho program started, the military provided tamahagane to those smiths.

 

I agree some showato are nicer than others but the bottom line is none of them are considered nihonto.

 

Oh agreed. They are non-traditional in some way, and therefore not nihonto. I was just pointing out that the construction of some (not most) was a bit more complicated that it might seem; one smith, by his own account, may have been using puddled Western steel in orishigane. There's also the reported reason behind the introduction of tang stamps, which suggests some were good enough for the authorities to fear that they could be confused with nihonto.

 

They were afraid people who didn't know better might not be able to differentiate, like your average Japanese soldier....

[george trotter]

I hadn't thought much about it before, but Chris' words about traditional swordsmiths not producing showato rings true. Searching my ancient memory banks I have to conclude that true tosho-made gendaito blades I have seen are either without stamps, or have the marks of true tamahagane/water quenched blades such as RJT star, Minatogawa mon etc or (tiny) Saka, Na, Ko of the army forge locations on swords by such as Gassan etc. I have never seen a Sho or Seki stamp on such swords...nor have I seen the Sho or Seki stamps on any blades signed by any of these superior smiths.

However, I have seen swords made by Seki gunto tosho that are clearly gunto with Sho and Seki stamps and have also seen blades by these smiths ( shoshinmei, nakarishimei, kazuuchimei) without any stamps which show evidence of higher quality...hada, nie etc (although they all had the standard gunto shape and dimensions). I would definitely classify these unstamped blades as showato of varying qualities, but would not be comfortable to call them gendaito.

From this, I would say that from my personal experience I would agree that true gendai tosho restricted themselves to gendai work and that gunto tosho (Seki and elsewhere) seem to have made mostly Sho/Seki stamped gunto with some few of these 200-400 Seki tosho also making the occasional superior blade without stamps... from observation I would classify the ones I've seen as showato...but not gendaito.

In addition, my research tells me that while forges such as Yasukunijinja, Minatogawajinja and a few others mentioned in this thread had tamahagane and charcoal, only the RJT scheme smiths were regularly supplied with tamahagane and charcoal....not the Seki military tosho, so unless they could scrounge up these commodities privately, they could not produce gendaito...and I have never seen one.

Interesting thread,

Geo.

[loiner1965]

hi george.

yourself and chris experience is most welcoming on here and us learners really appreciate it....can you look at my posting on this thread and examine my sword please...as you are aware from the past it is signed by kanetoshi who could also be kanemune too....it has a hot stamp on the tang too but i cannot see a simple showato bearing one....the blade as a lovely suguhu hamon and ko-itame grain but it as a seki stamp on the tang too......are you in the uk george as i be most willing and honoured in sending the blade to you to examine and give me your thoughts....

[pcfarrar]

Hi Steve,

 

Quite a lot of showato have hot stamps. Someone told me they were just used in the factories as a quick way to identify different smiths work before they were signed. No idea if that is true or not.

 

Peter

[cabowen]

Seki and Showa stamped blades are both non-traditionally made, regardless of hot stamps, custom order mei, longer than standard gunto lengths, horimono, hada, etc.

[george trotter]

Hi Steve,

I had a look at your Kanetoshi pic and the sword looks "good"...however, swords made with western type steel can still show some hada and nioi/nie, but still be showato (I have two of such blades). It has been my experience that if the sword has Sho or Seki stamp, the sword is likely to be one of the gunto tosho's non-traditional gunto work....even if it has a hot stamp (kokuin).

I am aware that both gendai tosho and gunto tosho used kokuin...I cannot say this is a particular "proof" of anything and both kokuin'ed and unkokuin'ed blades are known by both types of smith...leading to the question, why, if the smith consistantly makes the same standard of blade, are some kokuin marked but not others? To illustrate... I have personally handled blades by Ando Kanemoto, a Seki WWII tosho (see Slough p. 50). The oshigata on p. 50 clearly shows a Seki stamp and a kokuin. The mei also says simply "Ando Kanemoto". A blade of his that I own has no Seki or kokuin stamp and is signed "Ando Kanemoto kore o kitau" (forged this). The Slough example is certainly a gunto, but has a kokuin...mine is certainly a showato, with hada and nie, but has no kokuin...so I conclude that we cannot take a kokuin to be somehow a sign of better quality/traditional make in modern era swords of WWII. In the case of the gendai tosho using a kokuin...as all their swords are of superior make, but only some have the kokuin, I suppose it means the whim of the tosho.

I suppose a traditionally made blade by a Seki tosho may turn up one day, so we all hesitate to say "never", but from our experience, I think most of us would confirm that a Sho / Seki stamp means a non-traditional steel/construction/quenched blade. In these swords the kokuin means nothing....maybe tosho's whim again?

Regards,

George

[loiner1965]

forgive me gentlemen as i may be getting confused here but this is my take on it....

showato.......to me means made in the showa period but when connected to a military sword eg gunto then its machine made and oil quenched....

traditionally made.......water quenched and made with tamahagane steel

my kanetoshi with the hot stamp and ko-itame grain and suguhu hamon with ko-nie i believe to be hand made and folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel and not tamahagane.

i also do believe some machine made blades can exibit grain but not to the extent where it stands out to the naked eye as such but i am open to be proved wrong

[Kevin]

showato . . . when connected to a military sword eg gunto then its machine made and oil quenched....

 

my kanetoshi with the hot stamp and ko-itame grain and suguhu hamon with ko-nie i believe to be hand made and folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel and not tamahagane.

 

 

Surely the second observation contradicts the first para. If the Kanetoshi is handmade, folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel or domestically produced western-type steel then it is, by definition, not a nihonto but a showato. However, it is not a machine-made showato. One would therefore deduce that not all showato were made by machine or oil-quenched, and the argument that they are is an over-generalisation; true in many cases, but not all.

 

Kevin

[Kevin]

I have seen swords made by Seki gunto tosho that are clearly gunto with Sho and Seki stamps and have also seen blades by these smiths (shoshinmei, nakarishimei, kazuuchimei) without any stamps which show evidence of higher quality...hada, nie etc (although they all had the standard gunto shape and dimensions). I would definitely classify these unstamped blades as showato of varying qualities, but would not be comfortable to call them gendaito.

 

From this, I would say that from my personal experience I would agree that true gendai tosho restricted themselves to gendai work and that gunto tosho (Seki and elsewhere) seem to have made mostly Sho/Seki stamped gunto with some few of these 200-400 Seki tosho also making the occasional superior blade without stamps... from observation I would classify the ones I've seen as showato...but not gendaito.

 

I am puzzled - not for the first time. It was required by law that non-traditional blades should be stamped. Consequently if these blades aren't traditionally made in every respect and yet are unstamped, then the smiths were breaking the law, which risked the authorities descending upon them. OTOH, if the swords in question are traditionally made in every respect, then they are gendaito, they didn't need to be stamped and were perfectly legal.

 

What is the evidence that these blades weren't traditionally made in every respect? Just curious.

 

Kevin