Kaneie-Tsuba with inlays

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi,I have a typical Kaneie-II-Tsuba which has inlays in silver:4 of the famous 8 views of Lake Biwa.My believe is that these inlays probably had been added later (19th century?).What's your opinion?Ludolf

[christianmalterre]

Hallo Ludolf,

 

well,hard to say as this kind of Tsuba is not in mine focus-but it looks like as you mention.

Either way-very nice!

Did you compare the silver-workmanship with this schools normal or if used typical workmanship?

On colour you can´t fix it but on the line-drawing.....

 

Christian

[Bob M.]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2636

 

Might the above help ?

 

Regards

[Ludolf Richter]

Thanks!4 of the 8 (all 8 views of Lake Biwa) inlays of John's Tsuba seems to be identical with mine.That tells me,they were added to existing Tsuba (mine from Kaneie-II,exactly like Nr.T59 in Heckmannn,"Tsuba"),probably made by gold/silver-smith.Maybe because my Tsuba is relatively thin (0.25 mm) only 4 inlays were possible instead of 8.For me it's silver and not copper with silver.Ludolf

[Ludolf Richter]

Besides Hiroshige's 8 views,shown by Nobody,here are Kunitora's.The inlays of mine and the other Tsuba are showing different motifs.Ludolf

[Brian]

Maybe because my Tsuba is relatively thin (0.25 mm) only 4 inlays were possible instead of 8

Ludolf,

Possibly this was part of a daisho set, and the other one had the other 4?

 

Brian

[docliss]

Dear Ludolf

 

The consistent shape of each 'view' indicates that these decorative plaques were 'mass produced', presumably in the C19; I should, therefore, be very surprised if those on your tsuba are not, as are the others, silver plate on a copper disc.

 

I think that the suggestion that your tsuba is the dai-tsuba of a dai-sho pair explains very neatly the presence of only four of the classical eight views.

 

Why do you so confidently call the plate of your tsuba a 'kaneie II' plate?

 

Kind regards, John L.

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi John,my Tsuba without the inlays not only has a similar surface structure like Heckmann's (all pieces in his book "Tsuba" are displayed with the original size!) T59 ("Kaneie-II") but is also identical in shape and the size/placings of the Ana:if I lay my Tsuba on his pic,nothing of the pic is to be seen.Sorry,I could have described it easier,if I had known (because not to be found in my dictionary) the English term for "deckungsgleich".Ludolf

[docliss]

Ludolf, with all due respecr, are you seriously suggesting that 'deckungsgleich' is a sound basis for the attribution of a tsuba? Given a group of tsuba, accepted as being all by the same hand, I wonder how many of these would pass this test.

 

John L.

[Ford Hallam]

I have to agree with Doc, attributions based solely on apparent similarities like this are not very convincing really. A bit like calling every "sea cucumber" shaped tsuba a work by Musashi....even though there are those who do that too.

[docliss]

Interestingly, we now have access to five tsuba, each with identical inserts of the Omi Hakkei, rendered in copper and with a silver plating, in an iron plate. These are:

 

1. A tsuba in my own collection, and illustrated in the thread

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2636 as noted above by Bob M.

 

2. Also illustrated in the same thread, Steve refers to a tsuba with similar inserts, but with a raised mimi, and with a NTHK paper attributing it (questionably?) to the Ichijō group.

 

3. On p.93 of Inami Tomohike’s Catalogue of the Fahrenhorst Collection is illustrated a very similar tsuba that is attributed to Satō Yoshiteru (H 12173.0), 1828-1902, and working in Kyotō.

 

4. On p.113 of the sale catalogue of the Collection du Docteur Mène is another tsuba. The illustration shows only three decorative inserts on the omote surface, and the gold hon-zōgan decoration present on the other tsuba appears to be absent here; it is described as having a seal for Tōu present on the ura surface. Is it conceivable that this is in fact a seal for Tōhō, a Satō artist (H 09713.0), 1824-1859, and working in Kyotō?

 

5. Finally that of Ludolf, with identical inserts on a (supposedly) Kaneie II plate.

 

These tsuba raise two questions in my mind. Is there a common origin to all of them? The images were clearly ‘mass produced’, and were probably generally available for tsubakō to obtain, but was a single school of artists responsible for the end product? And were the ‘views’ silvered by a yakitsuke process, using a silver/mercury amalgam, or by an electroplating method, bearing in mind that electroplating with the noble metals was not perfected in the West until the 1840s?

 

John L.

[christianmalterre]

Dear John,

 

i just think on the two East India companies influence-but here definitely i am shure you already did evaluate as this thematics is your´s personal-focus(reference on your´s excellent publication).

All those Tsuba are in mine eyes not to be seen as a typical work of art or better said art-interpreted feeling in traditional Japanese art-understandment nor rather influenced by the mainstream of traditional Japanese thought or main-school.

Rater conglomerates in stylism and intended expression due former late Edo understandment and foreign influence and resulting market-interest and trade.

Also i do find it striking that this kind of Tsuba-Art mainly does seem to hit the foreign art taste-not the typical Japanese one.

 

Maybe i am wrong here but in kind of metallurgical treatment this idea could touch the surface-think on Indian/Korean metallurgical treatments which begun much earlier than the Japanese you mention....?

 

Christian

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi John and Ford,as I had already stated,my Tsuba (without the inlays) is a typical Kaneie work,checked with a lot of my Japanese and other literature and with examples from my tosogu-database,and now you find out to be exactly "deckungsgleich" with a verified Kaneie-II-Tsuba from the books,is this not an additional proof about the authenticity?By the way,I am doing the Nihonto-business seriously for more than 25 years,starting much earlier.Ludolf

[docliss]

Thank you, Christian, for your kind comments. I do agree with your observation that these tsuba demonstrate a strong Western influence, and would be very interested to hear Ford's observations upon how he views them.

 

Kind regards, John L.

[christianmalterre]

Dear Ludolf,

 

i do think that neither John nor Ford was willing to argue about any authenticity question or personal attribution-i think this is not the interest lying here in this treat.

I do understand your´s feelings but also the distinct mentioned critisism.

Perhaps it will help you in evaluation that i once 5 to 6 years ago had an NBTHK papered Kaneie Second generation Tsuba which i sold to an german NBTHK member/so eventually you know it?-This one had completely different characteristics in stylism(so not relevant at all) but also in iron-forge and iron appearence(relevant here)than the your´s topic-object but also the other mentioned one in an former treat on this forum.

So i do understand the distancing. As already mentioned-this in mine eyes is a nice Tsuba but unfortunately not in mine focus as me i am a metallurgic-man.

O.K.-This point i do hope does get clearer?

 

Also to help in language-distincts:

 

"Deckungsgleich" can be translatet as "similar".

There are as far as i am apparent two possibilities to interprete/translate "Similar".

One "Similar" can fairly be interpreted as "same",The second "Similar" can fairly be interpreted as "a sami kind of".....

The word "Deckungsgleich" is an old german word or prononciation which nowtimes only or mostly is used in academical language like you do find in some older art books or references.

Antique Art Dealers,Scientists and Auction Houses for example like to use this expression as it lets space to not been fixed by law§.

Deckungsgleich does not mean or can not be translated as Equal!

Like in German:Das "Selbe" ist Nicht Das "Gleiche"!

Also Deckungsgleich is a reference to specific points within one question on a similar or equal thematics on one specific treat or object.

(This just in short for our´s non-german language knowledge(and mentality?) members :D

 

What i do think is much more interesting is to find out better information on the question of metal-treatment involved and for which reason similarities appear striking in an very specific time-period of Japanese history.

This is in mine eyes much more interesting and with your´s nice Tsuba we could perhaps find a way to get better insights?

 

Christian

[Guido]

deckungsgleich = congruent

[Ludolf Richter]

Thanks Guido!Ludolf

[docliss]

Subsequent to my earlier posting, I am now able to add a sixth tsuba to this group:

 

6. #402 in the Christie’s sale of Japanese Art and Design, held on 12 May, 2010. This is mumei, unattributed, and the theme apparently unrecognised, but is clearly very similar to the others in this group.

 

Is there not sufficient consistency among these tsuba to posit that they are possibly the work of a single group of tsubako?

 

John L.

[christianmalterre]

Thank you John,

 

this is quite good remark-i do think so meanwhile-better sayd formerly had in mind this possibility already-too much similarities and All in same expressional (westernised)taste.

Ukio-E also were not as high apperciated by the Japanese as nowtimes is generally thought.-the companies did on the other side.

In mine eyes not per se a reputable Tsubashi-school-(in regard of the iron of all those pictured Tsuba)rather a country work like you find in later Tsuba-workmanship.

Did you compare the Silversmiths work with Silversmiths work on decorative objects like vases,pipe-heads ect. you can see on same time-period products produced in Kyushu?

I don´t know but if you have compare with the publications by Joly for example....???

 

Christian

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John,

 

I think the similarity of these plaques does point to one (maybe 2) source of manufacture. I think what we are generally seeing is the application of these bits of appliqué onto standard "munition grade" tsuba. This was clearly done to make these, otherwise unremarkable, tsuba an appealing tourist trophy.

 

As to whether is sort of design or aesthetic is in response to perceived Western taste I have my doubts. This approach, a selection of appropriate scenes etc, is something that is seen on tsuba made solely for the local market during the later Edo period. In many way this echoes the idea of some traditional gardens with their various, carefully framed, views.

 

I would suggest that this choice of aesthetic and design was thought appropriate for a Western market not because it reflected Western taste but rather that it is quite easy to understand and is fairly obvious. There are countless similar examples of "picture postcard" art from the Edo period to show that this sort of "low brow" taste was quite common in Edo period Japan, well before the corrupting influence of the filthy, big nosed, barbarians. with the coming of Perry and his pirates.

 

There are also some perfectly lovely examples of tsuba from the Edo period that are very much like the ones we're discussing but as with all art, it's all in the execution.

[docliss]

Thank you, Ford, for your observations - insightful as always. John.

[kokyo jin]

This one may be of interest...

 

 

 

http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/145494323