Mixing Periods - Taboo or acceptable

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

I recently posted that I was looking to mount a gendai blade in non-military koshirae using period pieces. This leaves me with very few options. I have the production pieces typically found on 'civilian' mounted blades - which the quality of this blade far exceeds - or hand-crafted tosogu created in the WWII era witch is next to impossible to find. This leads me to my question.

 

Is it acceptable to mount a blade in mounts outside of the era they were created? I know a lot of koto blades are in edo koshirae because that was when the blade was shortened and that is acceptable. Also I know I wouldn't look down on a blade because the koshirae date to 1700, when the blade dates to 1630; but for some reason, it just rubs me wrong to mount a nice gendai blade in koshirae with modern pieces.

 

So what is the group consensus on mounting a gendai with edo f/k, menuki, and tsuba? What are your thoughts on mounting in modern koshirae?

 

An example of gendai mixed with edo is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/NAGAMITSU-GENDAITO- ... 0130857241), so it is done to some extent, but was looking for input of those far more experienced than I.

[Brian]

Joe,

That depends on your intentions and aims?

Are you looking for a display piece, or to use it for some martial art? If for display or to simply appreciate it, then keep it in the military mounts that it was intended for, or a shirasaya and with the mounts displayed separately with tsunagi. I can't think of a decent reason to remount a Gendaito except to make a project where there wasn't one.

I think it is dangerous to do things just because there is a lack of "things to do" and this is a big reason why some people mess with wartime swords.

It was made to go to war, and should stay that way.

Think of it this way, in 300 years, someone is going to get shinsa papers for those mounts and they might just remark how unusual it is to still find swords in their original koshirae

 

Brian

[SwordGuyJoe]

Brian,

I suppose a mix of all that you are saying. The blade is in shirasaya alone and I'd like to have it mounted, but not in military mounts. More than likely, the mounts would house nothing more than tsunagi, but be displayed along with the blade in shirasaya.

 

I may be making a project where there isn't one, but I am sure people would have said that about someone looking to mount a Meiji piece in the 1940's.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Joe,

I don't think it matters to anyone other than yourself what you do. No damage will be done to the blade so no one can carp about that. There are no Gunto koshirae that will be separated from the blade; once again no problem.

If you want to put together a set of koshirae for this blade choose what pleases you. Nothing you choose will be appropriate; only Gunto or shira-saya fits that bill. Whatever you choose will be worth less as a unit than the individual parts were when you put them together, and together they will add less value to the Gendai blade than you paid for them, so go into this realizing that it isn't a money maker. Otherwise, have fun.

Grey

[David Flynn]

There is nothing wrong with mounting a gendai in antique mounts. What needs to be taken into consideration though, is the cost V return. Unfortunately a antique mounted Gendai, will not return the costs involved.

[Jamie]

I agree with you David, but you could have it mounted for a reasonable fee, depending upon who you have do the mounts.

[David Price]

... Think of it this way, in 300 years, someone is going to get shinsa papers for those mounts and they might just remark how unusual it is to still find swords in their original koshirae ...

 

Gunto koshirae?!?! I must say that I find that more than a little unsettling

 

Dave P

[David Flynn]

Jaimie, it's not just the price of having the sword mounted, it's also the price of the fittings. Of course, this depends on the quality of the fittings as well. Some Iaido people have gunto, remounted civilian style, with reproduction fittings. This is fine for a gunto, though I believe it would cheapen a nice Gendai.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Grey,

That was exactly my concern. It just doesn't seem right.

[sanjuro]

Gunto, Gendaito? in this respect at least what is the difference? If it was mounted as a WW2

sword then leave it that way if originality is a concern. If originality is no concern then mount it any way you want to. It wont change what the blade is, Gendaito or Gunto. The only person you may impress is yourself. A Gunto or Gendaito in Edo period fittings is still a Gunto or Gendaito to the discerning eye.

[Rich S]

I'm going to offer an opposing viewpoint (flame away). While I would certainly keep the original gunto koshirae, I see nothing wrong with remounting a gendai blade in Edo period mounts. After all, the Japanese have been remounting Koto blades in Shinto, Shinshinto, Edo, Showa, etc.

mounts for hundreds of years. If the cost doesn't bother you, go for it.

Just do nothing that would damage the blade, gunto koshirae or the fittings you use to remount.

 

Rich S

[Jamie]

I agree with you to a certain extant David. I wouldn't suggest using repro fittings on an old blade, even a gendai.

But I agree with Rich also. And I agree that it wouldn't necessarily increase the value at all -but I'd like to have a samurai mount if I had a nice Gendai in Shirasaya.

[SwordGuyJoe]

but I'd like to have a samurai mount if I had a nice Gendai in Shirasaya

 

Me too Jamie! This is my dilemma. I don't believe that I will be selling this piece any time soon and (hopefully) will leave this and my other pieces to my son. But if I invest in the mounts and need to sell the piece, then I may be in a position where I am trying to charge way too much for a edo mounted gendai blade to get my money out of it.

[Jamie]

Joe, I certaily see your dilemma. Especially in the current financial market. But if the sword isn't going anywhere soon, and you are doing it for yourself, you may be able to have it done for a reasonable fee. Or you could collect Fuchi/kashira, then a tsuba-, etc. (so the expense doesn't hit you all at once. And a Tsuba, and Furniture aren't going to lose value right.

 

I have a Tsuba that is silver and I love it. It Will be mounted on something- because it's too nice not to be.IMO

I was going to mount it on a custom contemporary wak, but have decided against it since that piece is not antique. and I will likely sell that piece at some point. So I will mount it on something I intend to keep.

I think it's Wak size.

[sanjuro]

Can I just play Devil's advocate here?

 

From a purist point of view, a Gendaito or Gunto Blade can never be a samurai nihonto, regardless of how you mount it. If you want a sword mounted as a samurai blade then why not buy a samurai nihonto in koshirae or in shirasaya and mount it appropriately? At least then you will have the real Mcoy.

[Stephen]

a Gendaito or Gunto Blade can never be a nihonto,

 

HUH?

[sanjuro]

Yeah, I figured somebody would have a problem with that Freudian slip. Actually, the word samurai was supposed to be inserted before the word nihonto. Probable cause is that my inner radical and purist evil twin decided to omit the word.

 

Now, this is going to draw more fire I guess. The original post will be edited as above. Lets just leave it at that. The prejudices of my evil twin should not be aired in public. I'll have a word to him about this. :D

[Nautilus]

Yeah, I figured somebody would have a problem with that Freudian slip. Actually, the word samurai was supposed to be inserted before the word nihonto. Probable cause is that my inner radical and purist evil twin decided to omit the word.

 

Now, this is going to draw more fire I guess. The original post will be edited as above. Lets just leave it at that. The prejudices of my evil twin should not be aired in public. I'll have a word to him about this. :D

 

Hehe... I sense the old elephant in the room with the collection of blind scholars.

 

I had a similar situation with a beautiful blade and how to mount it. A Gendaito, to be sure, but one made in Bizen for some Toyama fellow in 1937 (and to the pattern of a classic Edo period day-sword). It was gifted as a blade for kata practice, and the Master expected it to be mounted in an appropriate koshirae for Dojo use.

 

I was a little reluctant till I got hold of a photo of the blade as it had been mounted at the war's start - in mid Edo period fittings, passed down through the family in question. That and the Master insisted.

 

Each to their own I suppose. As long as you go into whatever you do with eyes open and firm understanding of how potential buyers might react.

 

Edit: with regard to the issue of passing things down to posterity, the chap who fashioned the 'practical' fittings for my own gendaito marked each piece with the manufacture date and torokusho number (purely a personal conceit on his own part to keep track of the different fittings he had for his own blades, but I asked him to pop them on mine as it seemed a fitting way to mark them out as 21st century practical phys-reps and not items of real art.

[sanjuro]

Old Australian saying:

 

'If you pull the wings off a duck it doesnt become a platypus. If you put wings on a platypus it doesnt become a duck, it becomes a freak.'

[David Flynn]

I have seen pre war Gendai with original Showa made fittings ( and very nice they were too!),not the mass produced showa fittings one finds on most civilian mounted war swords. Again, I say there is nothing wrong with mounting a Gendai with nice fittings. The only problem is the outlay V the return. Of course if one doesn't have any intention of selling, then go for it. The only difference between a Gendai and a Samurai sword, is the period of manufacture.

[sanjuro]

Not to mention who it was made for and what purpose it served. Thats all the difference in the world, right there Sorry...... Evil twin again

[Nautilus]

Old Australian saying:

 

'If you pull the wings off a duck it doesnt become a platypus. If you put wings on a platypus it doesnt become a duck, it becomes a freak.'

 

Well, I don't know about mangling marsupials, but I'm content with my old slicers, no matter how they are dressed. :D

 

Not so old Japanese proverb: "What are these gaijin smoking?"

[sanjuro]

Darren

 

Not directed at you...... More a general observation on dressing up gunto and gendaito to look like something different, something they could never be. I do not however begrudge anyone doing such things to their own gunto and gendaito swords for whatever reason they feel comfortable with.

 

The old Australian saying actually dates back to about 4 seconds prior to me posting it. :D

 

Other gaigin I cannot speak for, But I smoke Balkan Sobranie.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I think I have my answer here. I am not comfortable putting modern repro/practical fittings on my blade and I don't think mounting in edo fittings make sense from a preservation (or financial) perspective. Does't do the fittings the justice they deserve, nor does it 'fit' the gendai blade. I think the real answer here is keep my eyes pealed for original Showa pieces that Mr. Flynn mentioned. Thank you all for the conversation and conjecture.

[Nautilus]

Darren

 

Not directed at you...... More a general observation on dressing up gunto and gendaito to look like something different, something they could never be. I do not however begrudge anyone doing such things to their own gunto and gendaito swords for whatever reason they feel comfortable with.

 

The old Australian saying actually dates back to about 4 seconds prior to me posting it. :D

 

Other gaigin I cannot speak for, But I smoke Balkan Sobranie.

 

No offence taken, nor directing any sour ire back - this is a broad church and I rather see it as the purists up in the pulpit showing us the true way, while peeps like me are giggling at the back and smoking in the vestry (Old Holborn in my case).

 

I suppose I have been brutalized here in Japan with the sort of, almost lackadaisical approach to this whole-mix-and-match thing. Mind you, that might be because the swords I tend to come across are in the hands of practically minded martial types rather than collectors, with swords that are not really likely to end up in sale rooms.

 

But, before you think I am a total freak - I would not be comfortable displaying a blade without its own - proper period - fittings, and certainly would not sell mutton dressed as lamb.

[Lee Bray]

I think I have my answer here. I am not comfortable putting modern repro/practical fittings on my blade and I don't think mounting in edo fittings make sense from a preservation (or financial) perspective. Does't do the fittings the justice they deserve, nor does it 'fit' the gendai blade. I think the real answer here is keep my eyes pealed for original Showa pieces that Mr. Flynn mentioned. Thank you all for the conversation and conjecture.

 

If the Japanese can dress a fine old Koto blade in Gunto mounts to take to war, I don't think anyone can object to your idea.

As Rich said, it's been done for years and providing you do no damage to all the parts involved, I don't see a problem.