F&K any guesses?

[reinhard]

Reinhard,

You haven't addressed exactly why you feel the fuchi/kashira is Showa. You seem to have condemned it merely by association and not based on any specific traits in the workmanship.

 

Ford, I hardly ever "condemn" anything, certainly not sword-fittings; but seriously: I do not relate this kind of design nor this kind of workmanship to Edo-period workmanship for several reasons.

 

Design: Using the imperial Kiku-mon for design was (and is) a delicate thing to do. During the days of the samurai it used to be placed very carefully and was executed by craftsmen of superior skills only. Remember the swords attributed to emperor Gotoba-In himself. The Kiku-mon was added on the habaki-moto area so it would be protected and not be touched by fingers. - Rules were loosened later, but a minimal respect always remained. The design of this particular Fuchi (and Kashira) lacks this respect completely. Kiku-mon, cleanly cut in half, looks more likely to be a product of post-Edo nationalism and is reflecting the primitive attitude towards heritage during these times. Furthermore proportions are not right. Especially Fuchi is too big for this kind of Koshirae.

 

Workmanship: The carvings are shaky and clumsy. They are far from late Edo-period standards. You, a trained craftsman, should have no problem seeing this.

 

reinhard

[mdiddy]

Regarding the design, are you sure the f/k are trying to depict Kiku-mon and not the tehen and tehen-no-kanamono typically found on multiplate kabuto? Given the theme of the f/k is a multiplate kabuto, I would expect the latter to be more likely. The proportions of center to petal size would also be grossly off if this was meant to be a Kiku-mon. Perhaps the maker was trying to surreptitiously sneak in a Kiku-mon? Not sure why.

 

Here is the link where I found the below examples for reference: http://www.Japanese-helmets.com/armor_s ... lmets.html

[mdiddy]

Also - how is the fuchi being too big for the koshirae evidence the fuchi was manufactured in Showa? Could it not be possible the fuchi was made earlier and then incorrectly mounted later, perhaps in Showa?

[watsonmil]

Dear Matt,

I like you believe that the design ( kiku ) that reinhard referred to as a Mon in his argument was exactly as you noted ... the Tehen kanamono of the helmet. I too do not think this is any Mon. Interestingly enough as reinhard points out I always assumed the Kikumon was used with caution, NOTE ( I say used to ) .... but perhaps not as cautiously that ... in a second breath these sword scholars would have us believe that many swords bearing the kikumon and signature of smiths entitled to use the kikumon are many times Gimei. It would seem therefore that the Imperial Chrysanthemum was taken by the Japanese since at least early Edo times with a grain of salt. God, ... how we can argue a point with such weak evidence is beyond me. Little in this field would stand up in a court of law as arguments seem to be based on whatever whim enters the writers mind as they are looking for points to back up their assertations. There may have been a time when the Imperial Mon was respected, .... but it must have been A VERY long time before most of the swords and fittings we see today.

... Ron Watson

[sanjuro]

I also believe this is a tehen kanamono rather than a kiku mon. If one looks carefully at the very edge of the fuchi in the centre of the tehen/kiku mon design, there is the edge of the central hole that would be found on a tehen kanamono of a kabuto. To my knowledge the kiku mon has no hole in its centre and the petals are traditionally depicted as much longer with the centre of the kiku being much smaller. Without a signature or a date, speculation on how old this piece is and when it was made or mounted with no evidence to prove or disprove any hypothesis, the point is rather moot and remains entirely speculative.

That they are good workmanship or otherwise lies rather in the eyes of the beholder dont you think?

[cabowen]

That they are good workmanship or otherwise lies rather in the eyes of the beholder dont you think?

 

I think that good workmanship stands on its own. Whether or not they are art, now that is subjective...

[sanjuro]

Hmmm. I sense the basis for an entirely different discussion. :D

 

Point taken Chris.... However, a judgement of workmanship quality is a third party assumption of what the artists intention was, compared to how well it was executed in the medium. We may therefore only assume as in this case, that the artist intended to execute the design better than he did. Or, was the design executed less than perfectly by intention and in keeping with the generally 'adapted' design being limited by the space and shape of the piece upon which it was executed?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

In what way, exactly, do the Goto provide the standards by which all subsequent kinko should be judged?

 

Ford,

 

In rereading my statement, I must clearly back off my statement of Goto having set the standard for what followed, as Goto was not even the earliest of very fine ko kinko makers, I clearly over stepped here by allowing my emotions to get the better of me. So, please allow me to restate from the following, according to Hoa Benson's article, "Mainline Goto", it is evident that Goto Yujo might have derived his style and techniques based upon works from earlier ko kinko schools working at that time. However, what Goto Yujo did do was develop the techniques of using shakudo, nanako, and deep carvings to their "fullest beauty".

 

Now, while "fullest beauty" does not set "the standard", it works pretty darn well for comparative study.

 

What I think is that the sword community needs is to loosen up a little and judge items on the basis of what the individual likes, and NOT on what we are told to like by some scholar.

 

Ron, judge items by what standard? Individual likes is not a measurement, its not objective, it would be based on little more than a whim, really, nothing more than possibly a bunch of nonsense.

 

Collecting Nihontô - 06-11-2002 by Guido Schiller http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4870

 

The collector who boasts "I don't know anything about Nihontô; I just buy what I like" makes a statement that is not very profound. Of course he buys what he likes. If he doesn't buy what he likes, what does he buy? If he doesn't buy what he likes, he had better not collect.

[cabowen]

Not sure I can agree that workmanship/craftsmanship has anything to do with the artist's intention. Slipshod work produced on purpose is still slipshod work. A poorly shaped, forged and quenched blade is bad workmanship. I would think the same would apply to kinko.

[watsonmil]

Dear Chris,

In this case, .... whom but one or possibly two have said that the work is slip shod ( unless this thread has gone off on a tangent I do believe we are discussing a particular set of koshira ). Ford, who is an undisputed artist wrote : " Thirdly, while I would not suggest these are the finest examples of classical Japanese metalwork artistry I don't think it's fair to say they are very poor at all. I think they are fairly reasonable examples of competent craftsmanship. They are not, by any means, art, but they are perfectly honest and well executed pieces of craft."

 

Perhaps they do not meet the highest standard of workmanship, .... but I fail to see where they are slip shod, poorly executed, or somehow belittling the Emperor. I for one like them, Matt likes them, Mark likes them, .... as do many others. Personally I do not like Andy Worhol's work, ... but there are art critics who would dispute my lack of appreciation even though Mr. Warhol as an example painted a bloody soup can as a joke, ... saying the art experts would all rave about his genius. Guess what .... he was right ! I much prefer Mark's masculine Fuchi/Kashira set to some of the gaudy effeminate sets of koshira I see bantered about as fine art by the koshira collecting crowd.

... Ron Watson

[Henry Wilson]

I am amused at how much talk these items have received.

[sanjuro]

I am amazed that such mundane items can be utilised to inspire and sustain at least three different conversations on as many different levels. :D

[cabowen]

Dear Chris,

In this case, .... whom but one or possibly two have said that the work is slip shod ( unless this thread has gone off on a tangent I do believe we are discussing a particular set of koshira ).

 

I was speaking in general and wasn't specifically referring to this set of kodogu.

 

Personally I do not like Andy Worhol's work, ... but there are art critics who would dispute my lack of appreciation even though Mr. Warhol as an example painted a bloody soup can as a joke, ... saying the art experts would all rave about his genius. Guess what .... he was right !

 

Art, as they, is anything you can get away with.....and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....That about covers it!

[Pete Klein]

Here yah go - the effeminate version: http://page22.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/l32390359

[watsonmil]

Dear Pete,

Possibly un-noticed by you, .... you have just reaffirmed what I stated a couple of posts back, ... that indeed the subjects were copied by different craftsmen of varying degrees of skill at various times. Hence as I previously stated the proliferation of popular tsuba subjects ( as an example ) virtually identical but for the material and quality. You will note the Fuchi on Yahoo Japan is not even of the same width as Mark's example. The quality of craftsmanship is also terrible as compared to Mark's example which even I can see. .

... Ron Watson

[Brian]

I'm with Henry here. Perhaps the kiku argument has been proved to be incorrect, but there really isn't much to discuss here.

Late Edo..Meiji...Showa? No matter. They are honest and reasonable pieces, but you really can't argue that they are brilliant workmanship. It just isn't there. I would have them mounted on one of my blades, but please..let's not go down a tangent and argue about how well done they are. They are what they are, as Ford and others said. If we are going to have pages and pages debating how well done these are, we haven't learned a thing. Time to go open "Lethal Elegance" or the Boston book, or one of the other coffee-table books and gaze at some really fine workmanship.

 

Brian