F&K any guesses?

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

Matt was over this weekend and had a very cool F&K set.

After looking at it for a few moments, I figured out it was a 16 plate Kabuto.

Any guesses on the school would be helpfull.

Shakudo, with shibuichi inlay rivets?

Thanks,

[hybridfiat]

Very nice. Thanks for sharing that.

[watsonmil]

Dear Mark,

I'm a little surprised at the lack of responses to this post, .... I can only assume that like myself most are too green with envy. Congratulations Matt, ... I wish I could be of more technical assistance, ... but I am far from being an expert on fittings, ... but I do know what I like !

 

... Ron Watson

[jason_mazzy]

Matt this is great. I am so sorry i was not there. Please let me know when you will be back that way.

[Aloof Pegasus]

Hello Mark & Matt

 

Very Nice!!!

[David Price]

.... I can only assume that like myself most are too green with envy...

 

That about sums it up! Very nice set

 

Dave P

[Mark Green]

Thanks guys,

I'm sure Matt will be happy. I just knew you guys would like to see these.

Mark G

[mdiddy]

Thanks for the kind feedback. Mark has great eyes and spotted the Kabuto theme where I had missed it. Much thanks to him for taking and posting the pics.

[Ian]

Just like busses http://cgi.ebay.com/SAMURAI-Fuchi-and-K ... 1c138f677c

But not the same quality!

 

Ian C

[Mike]

Good catch in terms of design and quality, I definitely would like these mounted on my sword

 

Mike

[reinhard]

Any guesses on the school would be helpfull.

 

This tsuka (including Fuchi and Kashira) was made for a Showa-To during the 1920-1930ies. No need to search for any particular school, for there weren't any. Workmanship is very poor BTW.

 

reinhard

[mdiddy]

How can you tell?

[watsonmil]

Dear Mark & Matt,

As I stated previously, .... I like the set VERY MUCH. I can agree with reinhard, that the workmanship is not perfection, .... but then NONE of us are perfect. The work appears to me at least to be similar in style to a Myochin School example ( except I believe the Myochin are always iron ) pictured in B. W. Robinson's book " The Arts of the Japanese Sword ", ... plate number 50. Whether the piece is Showa-To or earlier I personally could care less. I like the subject, I like the execution, and I AGAIN thank you for posting.

 

... Ron Watson

[mdiddy]

Ron - thanks for the kind words. I appreciate critical statements so long as I can learn from them. If Reinhard would be willing to share his reasoning I would like to learn from his perspective and understand his analysis of the piece.

[mdiddy]

Reinhard - can you provide some grounding for your comments?? :?

[cspage]

Just in case someone wants to dig enough, AOI-Art, a few months ago, had a beautiful Ko-Uda katana with similar fuchi-kashirae. It sold and is no longer on the site and I don't know if they keep images, but someone might want to check with them to see if they could share the images for comparitive purposes. I deeply regret I did not download pics of that katana as I really really drooled over it and the koshirai, and the price was reasonable (alas, but not for me).

 

Colin

[Ford Hallam]

...as an alternative opinion, I offer mine.

 

Firstly, the rivets, if inlaid(?), are most probably silver. Not shibuichi.

 

Secondly, I see no reason to suggest the f/k were made at the same time as the rest of the koshirae. This is merely a guess...sorry, Reinhard, I simply can't see how you could substantiate such a definite assertion.

 

Thirdly, while I would not suggest these are the finest examples of classical Japanese metalwork artistry I don't think it's fair to say they are very poor at all. I think they are fairly reasonable examples of competent craftsmanship. They are not, by any means, art, but they are perfectly honest and well executed pieces of craft.

 

respectfully,

 

ford

 

p.s.

 

...and Ron,

 

I'm afraid I must beg to differ;

 

the workmanship is not perfection, .... but then NONE of us are perfect.

 

[reinhard]

There is a general thing to say about ShowaTo and I don't mean the militaria stuff. During early Showa era many people wanted to have a "samurai sword" but only few could afford a genuine one. Therefore older parts, usually of lesser quality, were assembled with newly made pieces. The new parts were usually of poor to lousy quality. In this particular case the Kashira seems to be of better quality than the Fuchi whose design and carving is a shame.

Although I'm not interested in GendaiTo and "Dai Nippon"-nostalgia from this period at all, it is hard to avoid them in the West. Problem is: Many of these ShowaTo works, seventy to ninety years old by now, left Japan and were/are sold for the real thing now.

 

Coming across a sword with Tsuka wrapped in blue or blue-green Ito, decorated with fittings of strongly varying quality together with extensive use of Kiku-Mon for decoration should ring a bell. The chances of seeing a ShowaTo are pretty high then.

 

I owned one of these assemblies for a while when I was still very green and I had time to study it in detail. I got rid of it later, but these kind of Koshirae pop up quite frequently in the West. I've seen one of similar quality recently when I was called by an auction-house to see a late Seki-blade.

 

It is quite difficult to find material to show you what I mean. Maybe this pic will give you an idea. The link to the site is just for confirmation, although some of the militaria guys will probably use it for their own purposes.

 

reinhard

 

http://g55-amg-long-gelandewagen.web.in ... on_1x.html

[Curran]

For the most part, I must agree with Reinhard. Similar experience to his.

 

Early days of my collecting, the first long sword I owned was Showa-to with this sort of kabuto fittings with some gold highlights. Was sold to me as late Edo... *sigh*. Saya was a paritcular black and red lacquer that I've since come to associate with post edo- and wrap was a golden mustard yellow. Brass tsuba of a shoami type sukashi design. No kozuka or kogai slots on most of them. Basically an all Showa rig on an okay if not bit hefty unsigned blade. Eventually got into Koto Bizen, and let the sword go off to someone else via ebay.

 

Seen the particular kabuto design repeatedly, finished different ways. Mostly Showa period.

___________________________________

 

Ah-ha....

Just looked at the ebay link someone provided. That would be an example of the Showa fittings more like the ones on the sword I had. I know dealer says they are Edo. Showa.

[mdiddy]

All – thanks for the additional comments and discussion, especially those aspiring to perfection.

 

Reinhard – I appreciate the detailed response and background info.

 

The tsuka is mounted on a wakizashi that I’m pretty sure is not ShowaTo. However, based on Reinhard and Curran’s comments I wonder if the koshirae was assembled sometime in Showa. The saya does not have kozuka or kogai slots. The tsuba is Shoami I think.

 

More feedback and discussion is welcome. I can post pics of the sword too if it factors into the discussion or if people are just curious.

 

Matt

[watsonmil]

Dear Matt,

I notice the menuki match ( or at least go very well with the fuchi kashira ), .... being a sahai, and gunsen ( war fans ). I doubt very much if the sword is showa-to as well. It may have been remounted in showa times, .... but then I have swords remounted MUCH later. I think on the whole the combination is just perfect. But then, .... my eyes are getting old .

... Ron Watson

[Ford Hallam]

Reinhard,

 

I appreciate your description of the mountings you've encountered on Showa-to. You may well be right about the time the koshirae was put together but this says nothing about when the individual parts were made. You haven't addressed exactly why you feel the fuchi/kashira is Showa. You seem to have condemned it merely by association and not based on any specific traits in the workmanship.

 

I would also question the need to make up new fitting in the Showa period when there were so many antique pieces available, not to mention the rapid decline in traditional skills among metalworkers by then.

 

regards,

 

ford

[cabowen]

 

I would also question the need to make up new fitting in the Showa period when there were so many antique pieces available, not to mention the rapid decline in traditional skills among metalworkers by then.

 

 

They were making them in the Showa period for the same reason they are making them now-for iai-to.

 

Most, if not all of the samurai mounted showa-to, were made as iai-to. With the nationalistic spirit in full bloom, the traditional martial arts enjoyed great popularity during the Showa period, thus the manufacture of large numbers of iai-to....

[Ford Hallam]

Chris,

 

you seem to have missed my point. Why make new fitting when there was a glut of readily available old stuff available?

 

Modern production methods make cheap copies available today but not so back then. A hand made piece would have cost more, I suspect, than simply picking up a suitable set from the vast amount of unneeded fittings discarded by the defunct warrior class.

[cabowen]

Chris,

 

you seem to have missed my point. Why make new fitting when there was a glut of readily available old stuff available?

 

Modern production methods make cheap copies available today but not so back then. A hand made piece would have cost more, I suspect, than simply picking up a suitable set from the vast amount of unneeded fittings discarded by the defunct warrior class.

 

I can only assume they were making new ones in Showa in such a manner that it was economically feasible. I have seen numerous iai-to from the period with poor quality contemporary fittings. I have always believed that if they were making gunto koshirae, never mind airplanes and battleships, they could make cheap fittings....I think the question isn't "why would they?" but rather "why did they?"

[watsonmil]

Dear Contributors,

I look, and I look again at the fittings on Matt's sword, ... and I DO NOT SEE that you can judge these as being necessarily showa-to, .... or if they are that they are of such POOR quality that they are unfit for anything but contempt. The ones offered on eBay give the appearance of being a cheap copy, .... with that I agree. It was not unusual to copy older examples, as can readily be seen in the proffusion of tsuba of virtually IDENTICAL subject BUT of varying QUALITY. Certainly Matt's set are not GOTTO which some of you seem to think is the only quality worthy of appreciation. Without Matt's set in hand to examine I think it impossible to completely dismiss his set as being showa-to, ... or if they are that they are necessarily of poor quality. Some people find Gendaito to be their cup of tea, .... to me they are of NO interest. This does not give me reason to dismiss them as being " less ". Some are quite good, ... some not so good and ALL find a treasured home somewhere. I may not be an expert on fittings, ... but I find it hard to fathom that these particular fittings are so terrible from what I see.

... Ron Watson

[mdiddy]

I agree - I don't see why they are necessarily Showa pieces either. I also don't see how the kashira is of better or differing quality than the fuchi. They look exactly the same in terms of design and manufacture.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings All,

 

Certainly Matt's set are not GOTTO which some of you seem to think is the only quality worthy of appreciation.

 

Ron, K-A-N-T-E-I forms the basis for determining the "quality worthy of being appreciated" in both nihonto and tosogu. As far as Matt's f/k set are concerned the question is, using kantei methods, can it be established based on style, the quality of the materials used, and the skill of execution, etc. ; 1) the time and tradition of manufacture, 2) the school of manufacture, 3) the name of the artisan that made this set? Why or why not?

 

The problems come when the workmanship and materials are such that there isn't any real distinguishing characteristics that readily provides answers, which also kind of sets limits on the appreciating end of things. And, as far as Goto is concerned, that key tradition of soft metal works only happens to be the corner stone, a marker, from which other soft metal works that followed can be measured, for better or worse. Working from a set of standards when judging is kind of essential.

[watsonmil]

Dear Franco,

You need not have spelt out Kantei, ... I am well aware of what Kantei means and here is EXACTLY what it means: It is without the aid and confirmation of a genuine signature which can be confirmed in comparison to other known signatures an ... " educated GUESS ". I have offered that Matt's set resemble in style and subject matter Myochin ( sans the iron ). I have not yet seen anyone else offer a guess outside of " Showa ". There are no end of fittings which do not meet the exact style , material nor workmanship of a particular school, .... and because they do not, ... are we therefore to accept that since they do not fit the pigeon hole someone has assigned them ( school ), .... they suddendly become less ? If that is the only crieteria that befits what is/is not acceptable in kodogu, .... then I'll eat my hat. I agree working from a set of standards is kind of essential, .... but none save Matt and his friend have FULLY examined the set of fuchi/kashira. If submitted to Shinsa, ... I would bust a gut if the items were papered in " the style of " or conversely in " the school of ". There were I am quite sure kodogu makers who worked independently outside of " schools ", .... and incorporated what they liked from various traditional schools into their work. Just how do you KANTEI these ??? I see this all the time in the field of the Tanegashima. What school does it belong to ??? Half the time although SPECIFIC schools were recognized, ... the particular gun fits no ONE school. Are they all Showa ??? I think not. What I think is that the sword community needs is to loosen up a little and judge items on the basis of what the individual likes, and NOT on what we are told to like by some scholar.

... Ron Watson

[Ford Hallam]

as far as Goto is concerned, that key tradition of soft metal works only happens to be the corner stone, a marker, from which other soft metal works that followed can be measured,

 

Franco,

 

I have to disagree quite strongly with this assertion, I'm afraid.

 

The Goto enjoyed a privileged position with the "powers the be", that much is accepted. That they set the standard for all subsequent kinko work is, in my opinion, completely without substantiation.

 

The Goto represented the Iebori par excellence, with all the concomitant political mechanisations that are implied. The Machibori ( the town carvers who developed apart from official sanction) have surely left us a wealth of genuine, and original, artistry in metal that is utterly at odds with the officially sanctioned Goto canon.

 

In what way, exactly, do the Goto provide the standards by which all subsequent kinko should be judged?

 

regards,

 

ford