New member, first purchase

[Sporkkaji]

Hello, I'm new to this forum though I've been reading through various threads for a while trying to learn what I can. I'm a complete novice, and on a whim I went ahead and made my first Nihonto purchase (not counting a naval gunto I've had for some time) on Ebay - a tanto from a seller who seems to have a positive reputation on this board. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0623002613

 

I would be very interested to get honest opinions from the knowledgeable folks here about it, and will consider any mistakes I made as a learning experience. Did I pay too much? My bid was a dollar more than the next highest, as I have found that bidding one dollar above a round number will often get it. The seller's description states that there are no forging flaws whatsoever, but my untrained naked eye sees what looks to be very small hairlines along the hamon only on the left side of the blade. Sorry, the only pictures available are the ones in the listing as I don't own a quality camera. Is the ca. 1550 time period accurate and is the mei likely genuine? I'm assuming the koshirae is most likely from a later period? Is the blade an item which would benefit from papers at the upcoming bay area shinsa? Finally, the very detailed little dragon on the tsuba is reaching for a small round object (egg?), is there any symbolic significance to it?

 

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[hybridfiat]

Im no expert but it looks good.

Prices are going down unless Im very much mistaken.

Yes showa22 has a good reputation. Ive had 2 swords from him and been happy with both. The last one he posted before Id had a chance to pay for it!? :D

[huntershooter]

Yuzo Maruyama (Showa 22) has been a good seller in my experience.

The blade in question appears to have a "tateware" (beginning of grain seperation) at the hamachi, the hamon is thin and there isn't much hamachi remaining (which would indicate a lot of polishes in it's life).

It is difficult to assess a blade from photos.

[loiner1965]

agree with huntershooter...showa22 is an excellent seller and board member and any sword he sells as lots of pics so you can see any faults....on this piece i can see the hamon very close to the ha indicating many polishes and the ware fault near the hamachi......i would not hesitate in buying from this seller as he is as honest

[pcfarrar]

The tanto also appears to have had a "chemical" treatment to bring out the hamon. This seems to be the case on a lot of the stuff he sells.

[Sporkkaji]

The tanto also appears to have had a "chemical" treatment to bring out the hamon. This seems to be the case on a lot of the stuff he sells.

 

What would I look for to spot this? Is that something that will continue to adversely affect the blade? I've given it a good coating of quality gun oil for corrosion protection, but is there anything else I need to do to protect it further?

 

The blade in question appears to have a "tateware" (beginning of grain seperation) at the hamachi

 

All things considered I'm happy with the purchase, but that doesn't seem to jive with his claim of "There is no forging flaws, no opening, no crack temper". As well as the line circled in this picture, whatever it is. It definitely can be felt with a thumbnail, and there seems to be a hairline extending from it further toward the point, but it is too small to show in the picture.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Greetings,

 

The seller's description states that there are no forging flaws whatsoever, but my untrained naked eye sees what looks to be very small hairlines along the hamon only on the left side of the blade

 

Well, the question is are you (name?) going to believe the written description of a seller or your own eyes?

If its any consolation, sword blindness, a common ailment among beginning collectors shopping on ebay, which stems from desire and lack of knowledge, can also sometimes strike even the most experienced of collectors. The addition of a good helping of cynicism along with disciplined knowledge, aka kantei skills, applied when nihonto shopping is the cure.

 

 

slightly

the hamon is thin and there isn't much hamachi remaining (which would indicate a lot of polishes in it's life)

 

Not to pick on Todd alone here, , as I'm seeing this line of reasoning posted repeatedly here on the NMB, and while I'll be the first to fully agree with this line of reasoning in specific instances (perhaps even in the case with this tanto), I would point out that a thin hamon and a low or even a completely gone hamachi can be a direct result from a one time only chip correction. Which means the sword itself can be far from being polished down in the sense that the sword is tired from repeated polishing.

[Stephen]

IMHO id ask for refund or credit to trade up

[Eddie]

Mate for your first nihonto its fine, we all started somewhere.

 

my opinion is enjoy your purchase, study it in person, learn what you can and enjoy the journey, when your ready to move up or when you find your tastes change you can resell to buy something else.

 

p.s the hamon does not look " chemical treatment" to me, it looks to be in old polish, good enough to study.

 

regards Ed

[pcfarrar]

p.s the hamon does not look " chemical treatment" to me, it looks to be in old polish, good enough to study.

 

The hamon has been brought out using acid. It is quite clear from the unnatural colour of the hamon (dark grey/black ish).

[Eddie]

p.s the hamon does not look " chemical treatment" to me, it looks to be in old polish, good enough to study.

 

The hamon has been brought out using acid. It is quite clear from the unnatural colour of the hamon (dark grey/black ish).

 

 

sorry but i disagree

 

the rest of the blade shows no signs of being acid etched

 

maybe a experienced polisher might chime in with their opinion

Ed

[pcfarrar]

sorry but i disagree

the rest of the blade shows no signs of being acid etched

 

Actually it shows all the signs of acid treatment

I have the misfortune to have handled many acid polished swords (acid polishes are rife in the UK) so it really is quite clear.

 

I agree with Stephen that the owner should ask for his money back. The sword was sold as having no forging flaws which it clearly does.

[Sporkkaji]

Well, the question is are you (name?) going to believe the written description of a seller or your own eyes?

If its any consolation, sword blindness, a common ailment among beginning collectors shopping on ebay, which stems from desire and lack of knowledge, can also sometimes strike even the most experienced of collectors. The addition of a good helping of cynicism along with disciplined knowledge, aka kantei skills, applied when nihonto shopping is the cure.

 

Cory by the way. Well, the written description I guess since I didn't know what I was looking at in the picture - thought it might have been a smudge or something. Once I had it in my hand, the flaws were pretty obvious even to me.

 

Another bummer in a recent string of them. I guess the question really comes down to whether I paid an exorbitant price for this particular piece considering the flaws and possible acid treatment. Assuming I don't demand a refund on general principle because of the misrepresentation, did I at least get an ok deal?

[Lee Bray]

3 or 4 years back, you'd probably have had to pay twice what you just paid for that piece on ebay.

With today's market, I think you could get a better piece with your money. But not that much better.

 

Can you learn from it and enjoy it as is?

If you can, keep it.

If not, you have perfectly legitimate grounds for getting a full refund with the sellers misrepresentation of the blade.

It has at least two large ware that I can see in those pics. Seller said it had none. If it were me, I'd send it back unless the blade was doing some serious 'speaking' to me in hand.

[Tcat]

As Lee said... 3-4 years ago that would most likely have sold on ebay for $1500 or so, perhaps more. Nowdays...well.....

 

All in all I dont think you got such a terrible deal so dont be too bummed. I am not an expert on nihonto pricing but it depends on what you really want from your blade. Sure, its not a flawless piece but you're not likely to find a flawless muramachi period tanto even for three times what you paid. As long as the seller hasnt mislead you on the date, you have there a 460 year old Japanese short sword with its temper line in tact and baring a signature.

 

I might add...though the tsuba is much later it is quite a little peach from what I can see in the photos...a nice shape with some decent carving. The theme is a dragon chasing a mythical dragon pearl, aka a dragon ball, historically a very popular artistic theme in east asia.

[Jamie]

I am fairly new to collecting- so the other members may have more meaningful opinions. But I collect mainly tantos so far- and for the price I think you got a decent deal.

Knowing that we all will be trading up at some point I try to ask myself if you can recover the amount paid so as to not lose any money. I would bet you could sell that piece for what you paid for it.

As far as knowing for certain whether or not it was acid etched- I'd send it to a reputable polisher for their opinion. Blades are hard to assess from photos.

It may be etched as Pfarrar suggests, I have no opinion there- due to my lack of experience. I've seen lots of etched blades but they are mainly production pieces- and in those it just brings the hamon up. Tamahagane has it's own unique characteristics when compared to modern steels.

[pcfarrar]

$800 is a bit too much for a kanmuri otoshi tanto in poor condition with incomplete koshirae. He would have been far better off spending a little extra and buying a tanto from Aoi Art with NBTHK Hozon papers.

 

Like this one for $1250:

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/tanto/10176.html

[nagamaki - Franco]

Assuming I don't demand a refund on general principle because of the misrepresentation, did I at least get an ok deal?

 

Hello Cory,

 

An "ok deal" becomes a relative issue in relation to what comes of it all. Some collectors are happy just breaking even when reselling their early acquisitions (which are quite often mistakes in judgment), and if the sale falls short they generally rationalize it as dues paid for the lesson(s) hopefully learned.

 

On a personal note, when reselling early mistakes it's good to see the chain of misinformation broken (remember that thing called the golden rule), even when it means swallowing a loss in recovering all of one's funds.

[Sporkkaji]

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

 

I have since contacted the seller making him aware of the issues and this thread. His brief reply saying that the condition of the blade is very common for a 400 year old piece, but he did not have any explanation whatsoever concerning his description clearly stating that there were no forging flaws or openings at all. He did offer to "sell it again" for me (I'm assuming on consignment), but made no offer of a refund either partial, or in full with a return.

 

I guess the moral of this story is buyer beware - especially regarding this seller. Unfortunately I had already jumped the gun and left positive feedback before learning the whole story.

[Lee Bray]

It doesn't have to end like that if you don't want it to.

The seller has made an offer; you don't have to accept it.

He misrepresented the blade, plain and simple.

His reply of "the condition of the blade is very common for a 400 year old piece" does not excuse that fact.

It has plainly viewable flaws where he stated there were none.

 

If you wish to keep it, great.

If you wish to return and get your money back, tell him so then contact ebay.

Don't feel bad about the purchase and don't feel obligated to keep it.

[sanjuro]

In 2004 I went down this same road with this same seller. In my case it concerned a tsuba that was 'misrepresented'. I even did the 'report it to ebay' thing when the seller refused to refund and accept a return. I go down on record as saying that reporting it to ebay is a total waste of energy since they dont really give a damn, despite their claims to the contrary. Its a buyer beware world out there people, so dont kid yourselves that ebay will come running to your aid if you make a mistake. They will predictably find a number of reasons to remain neutral. Sellers pay ebay dont forget..... Buyers don't, and Ebay is not set up to protect the uninformed buyer from themselves.

[Lee Bray]

Whilst ebay is not set up to protect the uninformed buyer it only makes money if buyers buy from the seller so I don't think ebay is out to swindle anyone.

 

Anyone remember Mackstar, a 'dealer' on ebay?

I bought from him before his reputation became known and although the deal was fine, he sent the original sword registration card with it(Tokurusho?).

I asked him about this as it meant it wasn't exported through the correct channels and being a novice, I was a little worried.

He replied saying they made a mistake but not to worry, I got the sword. I asked if they could rectify the mistake as I intended to ship it back to Japan for polish.

Next thing I know, my real name and address is posted on all his auctions stating that I'm a bad customer and a trouble maker. Nasty man.

 

Anyway...point of the story is I complained to ebay and within a day, all his auctions had been pulled.

When he relisted, no mention of my name was made.

I found ebay were fast and responsive with the only complaint I've ever had to lodge with them.

Perhaps the case warranted more of a response than a standard returns case but I was happy with their actions.

[moss]

Gidday Lee,

 

Maybe your case was one in a string of cases.

The proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

 

IMHO, buy off Ebay and you just have to accept you may get touched up.

Not all sellers on Ebay are dishonest ,many buyers are of spurious pedigree ,add a few dollars ,a few lines of bad description,a used item,an impulse buy,then turn up the heat and see what comes out of the pot.

Hmmmm not nice.

 

The lesson learned here really isn't too bad,no prize but it could have been much worse.

 

Cheers

Moss

[sturmbichon]

would thoses blade's hamons looks acid etched too ?

[sturmbichon]

another one

[nagamaki - Franco]

"Heavens to Murgatroyd!", "Exit, stage left!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snagglepuss

 

All IMHO of course

[sturmbichon]

So thanks a lot to sporkkaji who started this post, otherwise i would have bought the first one thinking it was nice with such a great hamon. But after reading the post, i checked past auctions and saw many have this similar pattern.

Which is too bad cause without thoses fake fancy hamons, thoses swords would be nice!!

Thanks Namagaki

[pcfarrar]

fake fancy hamons

 

You misunderstand they do not have fake hamon they have just been cleaned up using acid. When you get a sword in poor condition using acid is the quickest/cheapest way to bring out the hamon to make the sword more "commercial". It can cause serious damage as the acid gets into the core and begins to destroy it from the inside out.

[sturmbichon]

OK... I see, so thoses hamons are genuine, just enhanced by acid treatment.

My concern was thoses sword all have "fancy" and very original shaped hamons, and I thought the acid treatment may have resulted in giving thoses nice shapes.

[sanjuro]

Theres a saying among horsemen that 'a good horse is never a bad colour'. With swords a good sword never has a bad temperline., because a sword isnt about its temperline alone. Many bad swords have a flashy temperline.

Are you buying a good sword or a flashy temperline? Check the Hada. That's where the soul of a good sword lies. A good hada is usually accompanied by a good yakiba (hamon). It may not be flashy, but it will be good. :D