rust

[sanjuro]

Pete.

 

Perhaps I have strange tastes, but the second picture from 1952 and as I understand it, prior to cleaning, looks better and perhaps less 'flat' than the cleaned tsuba in the first picture. (Have I got this the right way round?). The darker patina is more flattering to the subject and the deer certainly look better. :?

[Ford Hallam]

It seem to me that any apparent difference in the appearance of this Kaneie tsuba is down to photographic technique and technology. If anything the newer image seems to reveal more rust. It also represents the colour and tones of the steel more convincingly. Based on this evidence I'd suggest this example has not been subjected to any significant cleaning at all.

[sanjuro]

Cleaned the spots right off the deer though! :lol:

[Ford Hallam]

Actually the silver spots on the deer in the earlier images are quite bright indicating the metal has had it's natural silver sulphide layer (which would have appeared glossy black) completely removed.

 

50 years later that bright silver has tarnished down to a far less noticeable pewter tone.

 

In this respect we could argue that this was a matter of over cleaning that has now recovered a more suitably "aged" appearance.

 

Silver can quite easily be toned down after the black sulphides have been removed so I suspect the decision to leave it bright after that cleaning 50 years ago took into account that it would mellow soon enough.

[sanjuro]

Makes you wonder what the tsubako intended them to look like doesn't it....... Last time I looked, deer have white spots not black ones. The tsuba when it was new would have had the natural silver colour on the spots. What we think is right and proper now may not be what the tsuba would have looked like when it was a guard on a sword rather than in a cabinet and kept as a 'work of art'. Not just in the case of this tsuba, but all of them.

 

I dont want to get into THAT discussion, but I find the thought intriguing.

[Ford Hallam]

Keith,

If Kaneie wanted black spot he would have used shakudo. There are a number of tsuba I can think of that feature deer with black spots. One in particular, attributed to Yasuchicka I. He would, though, have been perfectly aware that the silver would quite quickly tarnish and mellow. I assume this natural ageing was already something that was appreciated so it would not have presented a serious concern, I don't think. Having said that, silver sulphide can be as destructive as rust on iron and does involved the consumption of the silver. Incidentally, this is main reason silver nunome work on Higo tsuba, for example, is often so fugitive.

[Mark Green]

Patina

 

Gota love it.

[Steve Waszak]

Fascinating stuff, guys. I will say, having seen the tsuba in person less than a year ago in San Francisco, its appearance is much more like the image from the catalogue that Pete first reproduced here for us than it is like the 1952 "version." When I saw it, it really looked wonderful: the rust on the guard didn't detract from the design; in fact, it even conferred an extra beauty to it, there in the filtered light of the museum. Of course, I didn't see it in direct sunlight (which likely would have told a very different story), and my own views of it appearing beautiful in its condition at the time is entirely subjective. My concerns in this thread have been, as I've said, twofold: what is the "proper" aesthetic condition of a tsuba, on the one hand, and what is good for the tsuba (in terms of rust removal), on the other.

 

Ford, I hadn't known that bit about silver sulphide being actually destructive of the silver. Very interesting. Certainly explains why so many Jingo tsuba have their silver dragons in such a state...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Curran]

The before and after photo of the Nara Kaneiye seem to be a bit confusing the issue. Not what I would expect of a before/after.

 

Keith keeps on hitting on that there isn't a unified idea upon how to clean. I think the idea some of us where trying to communicate is exactly that. You must find your own balance point.

 

To quickly address some points:

(1) bone has a different hardness than ivory. It is more useful in some instances.

(2) oil can be useful in lifting some types of rust, but it is observed that people overdo it getting it all in the interior of the sukashi

(3) bare naked untouched, oil, wax, etc- depends on your view. How many do you have? Do you care for them actively? How much are you focused on pure preservation, vs the way they would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life?

 

I only own about 12 now. I have two kake for 3 tsuba each and rotate 6 on display and 6 in storage, so have a fair very light maintenance schedule for them. If I were able to own more, I'd probably take more of a pure long long term preservation stance.

[sanjuro]

Curran.

 

I suppose I do keep hitting on the idea of a unified system of how to clean a tsuba. It is not however, from a dogged singlemindedness that this springs.

Whilst I appreciate that each individual tsuba requires a somewhat different approach, and there are desirable levels of cleaning and decidedly undesirable levels of cleaning, the lack of an agreed ideal level of cleaning alarms me. As does the lack of a standardised (within reason) approach to the process of cleaning a tsuba.

If we each of us proceeds according only to our experience and knowledge, and that level of experience and knowledge is infinately variable among us, then the results are inevitably equally variable. Those with little knowledge like myself for instance, are prone more to make mistakes than those of us with wider knowledge. Common sense cannot be relied upon alone, since what IS sensible and what SEEMS sensible is likewise variable according to the aforesaid experience/knowledge. It strikes me therefore, that much damage is done unwillingly by well meaning but misguided or rather unguided effort.

A procedure which can be followed without experimentation would be a great help. I do realise this is probably impractical or impossible, but whilst Jim Gilbertson and others have done much to outline the methods of cleaning, there is nothing to guide one in the appraisal of a tsuba when cleaning is indicated. Even knowing if cleaning IS indicated is a minefield of uncertainty. The general lack of an idea of what is right and what is not even among 'experts' therefore only contributes to the confusion.

Personally, I own seven decent tsuba. None appear to be deteriorating in my care, and indeed a couple have been decidedly improved and restored somewhat by my humble and hesitant efforts. Yet I still do not know if what I am doing to conserve them is correct.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Keith,

 

I suppose your words underscore why it is that there is something of a fued among the various camps over what is the proper aesthetic condition of a tsuba, and then what the proper cleaning method and degree would be to achieve than aesthetic. It almost seems to boil down to trying to lasso a definition for beauty. So we're damned if we do, damned if we don't when it comes to tsuba care, it would seem. Very frustrating and disconcerting. but that's how it seems to me at the moment. Regardless of what course one might take in the care of his tsuba, some will agree, some won't. It appears unavoidable... :?

 

How much are you focused on pure preservation, vs the way they would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life?

 

I only own about 12 now. I have two kake for 3 tsuba each and rotate 6 on display and 6 in storage, so have a fair very light maintenance schedule for them. If I were able to own more, I'd probably take more of a pure long term preservation stance.

 

Curran, I am a little confused by what you say here. When you contrast pure preservation vs. the way these tsuba would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life, would you be able to detail this contrast for us? You mention pure long-term preservation here, too; I guess I don't quite follow your meaning when you say "pure preservation" (vs. something else). And elaboration would be much appreciated! Thanks.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[xxlotus8xx]

I am curious if anyone has used electrolytic rust removal techniques.

 

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/ ... usting.htm

[sanjuro]

Ray.

 

You are probably most unwittingly suggesting something verging on desecration. The answer is probably NO because those techniques make no distinction between rust that is supposed to be there and rust that is not supposed to be there. Or for that matter between rust and patina. God knows even the experts cant make that distinction judging by the posts on this thread.

Ivory, bone and elbow grease were invented first. Couple that with educated guesswork, and apparently you have the basics of primitive tsuba maintenance and renovation.

[xxlotus8xx]

I figured as much but doesn't hurt to ask right?

And the lesson would be as in all things that there are no short cuts. I think Israel Regardie got it right with this..

 

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.

Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.

Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.

Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.

Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

– Israel Regardie