rust

[Steve Waszak]

Keith

 

What you describe here at the end of your post is just the sort of process I went through in feeling ultimately stymied by the lack of clear direction to take when it comes to "proper" maintenance and preservation of these pieces. If so many Muromachi and Momoyama guards were lacquered to protect them, but those iron tsuba seen as top-shelf were not, it is implied thereby that some other method(s) must have been employed to protect them, since, as they are still ferrous, they would be subject to rapid rusting without such protection. At least, this is what I would think. I can imagine that black lacquer would have obscured too many of the fine features/qualities these tsuba would have had, thus another form of protection would have been preferred (Wax? Oil?). Of course, Sasano does suggest that the black-rust patina, coupled with the occasional rub-down, would be sufficient, so maybe this was enough?

 

Our discussion here leads me to wonder how many great tsuba have been lost to simple rusting, especially any that may have been lost when supposedly appropriate care had been administered.

 

I am reminded at this point of the Kaneie Nara deer tsuba I mentioned earlier. As I said, I saw this guard in person last summer in San Francisco (for anyone who has the Hosokawa exhibit catalogue, this tusba is well-illustrated there). It is a truly awe-inspiring tsuba, but it definitely does present with a fine coat of light red rust. At nearly 450 years old, though, if this piece had been well and truly neglected, the thing would be powder by now. So clearly, it has been tended to (and of course, any tsuba made by THE Kaneie is not going to go wanting for care and attention). Yet, rust dusts the plate. It has been explained to me that certain Japanese conservators are, um, conservative in their conserving efforts, and this is why such pieces appear with such rusty attire. But it seems to me that if such a philosophy had governed the maintenance approach used by all who had been entrusted with the tsuba's care over its lifetime, it would not have survived to the present day. Am I wrong in this assumption? If not, what approach was used in earlier times?

 

Then, too, I can't help but wonder whether, in the Japanese aesthetic sensibility, some light rust on a guard with an otherwise excellent patina hasn't been seen by some as desirable on some level (i.e. part of the patina imparted by the guard's aging). If this were so, we'd be back at that distinction between the "preferred" aesthetics of a tsuba and the best way to preserve that tsuba, which may not always dovetail smoothly...

 

I think it's time for an 18-yearl-old scotch and a couple of aspirin...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Baka Gaijin]

Good Morning all,

 

Does the term "Noki - Shita" 軒下 (Lit: Under the Eaves) ring any bells regarding older ways of creating black rust?

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Pete Klein]

This is the Kaneiye Deer tsuba from the Hosokawa / Eisei Bunko Exhibit now touring Japan which Steven mentioned:

(please forgive a bit of distortion to the right due to proximity to the spine in scanning).

 

 

 

 

7/10: The second picture is from the NBTHK 1952 'Masterpieces of Japanese Sword Guards'. I am adding this to show the difference in patina which will be mentioned in following posts.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Pete,

 

Many thanks, once again, for the visual aid...

 

What's interesting is that this image doesn't really suggest much in the way of rust on the guard, right? Okay, now if one were to download this image to one's computer, and amplify the color saturation feature, one would then see quite a bit of redness appear. In the various crevices, this manifests as a lighter-colored and crustier-looking rust, while over the raised portions of the plate, the redness is darker and smoother. Could some of this be rust, while the other is wax remnant?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[sanjuro]

speaking as a total layman when it comes to this higher level of tsuba, it strikes me that even in the illustration kindly provided by Pete, that the accumultion of whatever it is around the elements of the design is rather disgusting considering the army of 'experts' available to maintain this piece and the collection it is part of. I would have thought this piece in particular would have been lovingly cleaned and preserved by its owners. I'm quite frankly shocked that it seems to have been so neglected.

 

Having said that, I of course would have no appreciation of the finer points and aesthetic value of accumulated crud and rust on such an artifact. I'm only a poor ignorant gaigin after all.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Keith,

 

Yes, that's just it. Clearly, such a guard as this Kaneie would rank at the top of the list of those tsuba to be especially lovingly preserved via the very best care/methods possible. And yet, it presents as we see it here. I am left with one of three conclusions (assuming what we see here is, in fact, active red rust): 1. rust isn't as bad as we think it is; 2. this sort of rusty accumulation provides an aesthetic plus to the tsuba's overall beauty, in the eyes of those who hold these pieces in their keep; 3. even the best and most experienced conservators are clueless about how to deal with rust, and so they leave the pieces in this condition. Of these, the third option seems the least likely (obviously), and so I'm left with one of the first two (if not both) to consider as the reason for the condition of this Kaneie as it appears here. Either way, the final conclusion I would have to draw is that the Sasano and Kremers exhortation to remove all traces of red rust with due haste is at the very least not shared by some pretty well-established and experienced conservators of tsuba such as this. Too bad we can't summon these conservators to "explain themselves" here; their views, whatever they may be, would be illuminating...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[sanjuro]

Steve.

 

There is a fourth possibility........ That this piece and the exhibit it forms part of, is so seldom in the hands of true conservators that it like many other museum exhibits all around the world, is simply neglected.

Dare I say it? Museums are not always (Read as 'very seldom') the best conservationists of artifacts that require some degree of maintenance. Many Japanese artifacts in museums have deteriorated badly in the hands of so called conservators and curators.

[Steve Waszak]

Yikes. That is a scary thought, given that tsuba made by THIS Kaneie are the equivalent in the tsuba world of a Masamune in the sword world. I suppose I would still pose the question, in any case, whether this tsuba in its current condition would or could be seen as acceptable or ideal.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Tim Evans]

Some food for thought from Akiyama Kyusaku with commentary by Bob Haynes. These excerpts are from the Token Kai Shi, published in the early 1900's. Originally translated by Henri Joly into French and then translated into English by R.E Haynes and published in To-Ran.

 

 

 

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for these excerpts. Fascinating, especially that last one, which speaks to Bob's response to seeing this Kaneie tsuba cleaned... I can't help but wonder how this guard may differ today in its condition from 1988, when he describes his great disappointment at its having been cleaned. Or maybe the way it appears now IS its "cleaned" state?

 

Good grief, so it's quite clear that, even with a given specific tsuba, there isn't full consensus among experienced scholars on what the ideal/appropriate condition should be, right? I find this fascinating and, somehow, disconcerting at the same time... :?

 

Thanks again for the excerpts, Tim...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Tim Evans]

There are problems with museum collections. Tsuba are considered "minor decorative arts" so they are a very low priority for any kind of care or attention. Some of the issues as follows for collections I have seen in the US:

* Frequently uncataloged so pieces can go missing

* No funding for training someone on proper conservation

* Sometimes cleaned by well meaning but misguided individuals. There are some horror stories about what happened to the Gunsaulus collection for example

 

Important tsuba are really better off in the hands of knowlegeable collectors

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Tim,

 

I see. So, what do you make of the condition of this Kaneie, then? Would you say it needs a bit of TLC? Is what we're seeing simple rust only, or are there remnants of wax on the plate?

 

Thanks, Tim...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[sanjuro]

An aspect of the case in hand..... I draw attention to the upper right hand corner of the Kaneiye Deer park tsuba in which a pagoda and rock are depicted with a section of the torii arch associated with a temple. In this case obviously Nara. The junction of rock and pagoda exhibit an encrustation which has separated from the plate and the design along an edge bordering the upper edge of the rock, and extending right to the upper part of the inlaid torii arch. To the left it borders upon the pagoda. This is obviously not part of the design but an encrustation of rust or some other material. Is this a part of the aesthetic appeal of the piece or merely an unremoved bit of crud that even the lowest level of maintenance would have identified and removed?

If this is rust then it threatens the surface beneath. Surely removal would reduce that threat.

If it is an accumulation of grime or whatever then surely as an unwanted part of the design it warrants removal. What part of rust and grime/accumulated wax, is historically and aesthetically pleasing or valuable? :?

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Keith,

 

We think alike, my friend.

 

I hear what Tim's saying (and Ford has said it, too) about the state of museum conservatorship and why this is. Still, there are many who would consider this tsuba to be THE most important tsuba extant in the world (Kaneie is regarded by many to be the greatest tsubako, and this tsuba is regarded as his best work by some). I'm not sure I can think of examples of any other art form where a given piece even might be considered the zenith of its species, and then neglected to this degree (if neglected at all). Lack of funding, minor art form, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, letting this tsuba languish in this condition is the equivalent of letting the Masamune Houchou tanto accumulate rusty spots and streaks on the blade, with maybe a pit and a scratch for good measure, and then displaying it for exhibition.

 

I wonder what Sasano would have to say if he were to see this Kaneie now.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Pete Klein]

"I wonder what Sasano would have to say if he were to see this Kaneie now"?

 

Steven, please refer back to the pics I posted on the previous page and kindly rephrase... (lol)

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Pete,

 

Ah, yes. Hmmm... Well, between that unfortunate Kanshiro, and this Kaneie, we seem to be looking at two poles. I find it necessary to stress that it's not just that these guards appear in the condition they're in, it's that they appear in the condition they're in. That is, they are displayed (whether in a high-quality book, or in an exhibition) in their respective condition, with the implication being, of course, that they're fit for such display. Yet, again, they occupy two poles of condition (well, the Kaneie could be in much worse shape, of course, but you know what I mean...

 

If you're the poor, hapless sap (like me) who wants to "do right by his tsuba," and looks for guidance from the "experts" on how best to do so, and you see these two examples, what are you supposed to think/do?

To my eye (for whatever that's worth), neither of these extremes is desirable. Yet there they are, on display in the condition they're in. And not just any tsuba here, a Kaneie and a Kanshiro.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Tim Evans]

It really comes down to individual taste. Personally, I prefer them cleaner, however, there are others who like them grungy as it makes it more "antique" looking (see tks3 from my previous post about "curio lovers"). To answer your question, I can't tell from the image if there is a problem developing.

 

As this is probably among the top 10 most important known tsuba, doing anything to it is probably fraught with political implications. You might recall the controversy over the cleaning of the Sistene Chapel ceiling. Many objected, and much scholarship was undone as it was discovered that Michaelangelo's work was not as dark, mysterious, tortured and moody as some wanted to believe. This interpretation was entirely due to the dirt, wax, smoke and over-painting covering it up.

 

That said, it is possible to over clean a tsuba. It should have a sense of age and elegance. It takes practice and judgement to conserve a tsuba - I see it as being the equivalent of polishing a sword. However there is no formal apprentice system to teach people how.

 

Hi Tim,

 

I see. So, what do you make of the condition of this Kaneie, then? Would you say it needs a bit of TLC? Is what we're seeing simple rust only, or are there remnants of wax on the plate?

 

Thanks, Tim...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Curran]

Tim,

 

Thank you for the posts. Enjoyed the translation and the Haynes discussion of the Nara tsuba. I look at the photo (in its cleaned state) and see nothing particularly wrong with it as it is now.

 

Tim wrote, "It takes practice and judgement to conserve a tsuba - I see it as being the equivalent of polishing a sword. However there is no formal apprentice system to teach people how."- I think this is what I hoped someone would say. With the subjectivity being so great on tsuba and no formal apprentice system, it is a learn as you go process. I think I started with Jim Gilbert's article a long time ago, experimented considerably on half a dozen ebay grade tsuba of different types, read a bunch of differing sources of opinion, talked to a few people who were and will almost certainly always remain ahead of me in their knowledge.

I still think I learned the most from a single tsuba I think I mentioned earlier in this thread. An Edo tsuba of particularly good s-fold forging, I cautiously worked the ebb and flow of it with bone, ivory, cloth, etc for months in the pale but perfect restoration lighting of a Philadelphia fall and winter. In the end, I overdid it slightly. That Panzer tank hard tsuba with the beautiful grain just wouldn't heal as I tried years of slow methodical relatively natural inducements to undo the slight overshoot.

---It was like watching a glacier move.

 

Read up, get the tools, practice on so many that you don't care about much before risking one you do care about. I totally destroyed a low end Choshu in my learning curve, but don't feel remotely bad about that relative to the Edo tsuba that I slightly overcleaned. Saved it from its rust pimpled state, but don't think it will be 100% proper presentable for quite a few years.

[Ford Hallam]

You might recall the controversy over the cleaning of the Sistene Chapel ceiling. Many objected, and much scholarship was undone as it was discovered that Michaelangelo's work was not as dark, complex, tortured and moody as some wanted to believe. This interpretation was entirely due to the dirt, wax, smoke, and over-painting covering it up.

 

Hi Tim,

 

it's funny you mention the Sistine ceiling as the whole saga is discussed in some detail in the book I mentioned earlier. From drawings made by a number of well known artists, shortly after the ceiling's completion, we can clearly see that it was originally very well shaded and modelled. In fact, Michaelangelo who was primarily a sculptor, had a solid grounding in the techniques of the time and is not noted for being technically innovative, unlike Da Vinci. One of the most characteristic features of art of this period was in fact Chiaroscuro, the heavy emphasis on shading to emphasise volume. That this is now all but missing from the Sistine Chapel ceiling due to over zealous and unsympathetic cleaning is evidence of the real dangers inherent in inappropriate restoration.

[christianmalterre]

Hello,

 

i just would like to join this post as i have seen quite much collections of Tsuba till yet and also do know several of those Tsuba which are mentioned here.

in mine eyes-and this may seem very strict at first hand sight-nobody should do "anything" concerning playing/modeling on patina or eventually rust prevention.

Everybody experienced will immediately see the difference.

On Iron Tsuba there is definitely no need at all to clean-i don´t call up here for those bargain-or rubbish material you do find in hundreds in a certain two to three hundred-bucks level but those which are real collectors pieces.

I am very certain that if you do have the possibility to buy a Nobuie or Shodai Kaneie with old and naturally patina and the same with artificially "rebuilt or prewared" patina you all would spent 1000$ more(at least) for the old untouched one.

Not?

Why else collectors are ready to pay a certain level if not collecting history for themself and the further generation of our´s childs?

 

Christian

 

By the way-did anybody of you-and here i am certain as all of you are very experienced collectors-play with different light circumstances(there are plenty different artificial lights and natural light you can play with)-when you do Kantei you will sometimes see a very variant spectrum of colours-here good iron and good old and natural patina(and rust)just beginns in showing it´s beauty.

Unfortunately there are so much former very good pieces which had gone the "ebay-way" and have been cleaned(better said destroid and took off their´s charme in the last 20 to 30 years due good meant posts from experienced collectors but unfortunately destroid due the simple fact of good-meaning and making aware those all beginners about rust.

Sometimes it would be better to be calm-like Kremers did mention so nice in his book-he had a certain reason behind.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Christian,

 

Thank you for your post... You do make some good, thought-provoking points here. I appreciate your contributing these.

 

I wasn't quite clear about the Kremers reference, however, since I believe he holds a viewpoint similar to that of Sasano regarding removing all red rust. He seems to think that it is very important to eliminate ALL red rust on a good iron tsuba... If you were referencing a different idea held by Kremers, could you please let us know?

 

Thanks, Christian...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[christianmalterre]

Hi Steve,

 

well-yes of course-you are definitely right here in citing Mr.Kremers written words and Mr.Sasanos in one similar point/quite normal as Mr.Kremers did longtime study and was an good friend of Mr.Sasano.

In written words and explanation they both have the equal-same standpoint.

What is striking on the other way is if talking personally Mr.Kremers does point out points which are not yet as strict to be followed as if you just read written words-where there´s no possibility to hear and discuss the prononciations "between the lines".

The written is a sceletton like the beton-base of a new built house-project.

What is important is but here the rest of material to evaluate so to later get appropriate character.

(also please do never forget-that what is written is an momentanum standpoint of view and experience-but this also will eventually change with forthcomming study and increasing knowledge)(i am not shure if both of them would/had written the same now-and in 10 Years?)

 

I personally would not take just one or two personal points of view as an entire fact but also hear from those which are equally experienced in "rust-prevention" like those both mentioned persons but do not take part in the mob of book-writing or www-forums.

No question-the best prewared Tsuba are still in private possession and not in museum but this is an quite other thematics to think on-but here perhaps you do find an better answer.

A very little bit of red-rust prevention is great/just and only take natural plant oil-that is quite enough-rub it with a fine and soft cloth and you will see-in time and after several applications this red rust will get automatically involved in an very attractive patina/and new red-rust is automatically prevented.

Never use Brushes,Wax,Heat or Cold treatments and all those other nice ideas you fell over when you read all those "amateur-restaurator-conservator" posts.

You will need much time and passion-but Hey-you do have it and those before us had it,too.

We both do not have the need to hurry up

 

There are so many former good preserved pieces destroid now-at least let´s keep those good ones we can get in their´s former and original preservation.

My son is already getting very fascinated-let us see if he will follow-up?

 

Chris

[sanjuro]

With due respect to the knowlegeable opinions we have heard here, we are still at a point where no two opinions are actually in agreement. One says use a little oil, another says never use oil. One is in favour of wax, another is not. One says clean, another says dont clean.

Rust is good and adds antiquity..... Rust is bad and ultimately destroys the Tsuba.

Truly, there is no agreement and therefore by definition no certain knowledge or methodology. Whilst experience teaches one person one thing, the same or similar experience teaches a second person something quite different.

It matters very little if were dealing with a three hundred dollar tsuba or a three hundred thousand dollar tsuba. the knowledge and correct methodologies if they exists at all, would apply equally to both. What is lacking here is not opinion but widely accepted and proven practice. What is more, the further this thread goes and the more people that become involved, then the more evident this deficiency becomes.

[Steve Waszak]

Chris,

 

Thank you for the clarification on Mr. Kremers' viewpoints. I would like to know more about the evolution of his thoughts regarding tsuba care. In particular, it would be interesting to know why he may have changed his mind about certain points in tsuba conservation/care. I wonder, too: does he still subscribe to the white-gloves-only-when-handling-iron-tsuba doctrine?

 

Keith,

 

I appreciate your comments here, as they do indeed sum up some of the frustration I've felt when attempting to "get to the bottom" of the question of proper tsuba conservation/preservation. But your words also made me realize I probably haven't been clear enough about the way I have presented my concerns. That is, I see two distinct questions pursuant to this issue: 1. What specific aesthetic/appearance "should" we be holding in the highest regard? 2. How should we proceed with materials, substances, methods in attempting to have our tsuba achieve that aesthetic/appearance? The first question is, I think, really the crux of the matter. The second question is more "mechanical," and should yield fewer disparate opinions. After all, chemistry is largely an objective field of knowledge; if certain chemicals/substances are known to react with a given material in some way, this is a reliable reaction. So if we know what effect we want to realize in treating iron, the question of what substance to use to achieve that effect should, it seems to me, yield a relatively narrow field of possibilities.

 

The larger, thornier issue, in my view, is the question of how a tsuba "ought to" look in its "ideal" state. That is, when we are fully satisfied that a tsuba cannot be "improved" by treating or cleaning or fiddling, what, then, will that tsuba look like? Will it be left with deposits of rust, maybe even a bit of dirt and grime, to go along with a lustrous patina? Or, at the other extreme, will it be polished to the point where layers of metal have been stripped away, along with rust, dirt, grime, old wax, and patina? Or perhaps somewhere in between? If this latter, what point between the extremes is "proper"? I guess it just seems to me that as long as there is disagreement (even wide disagreement) about how a tsuba ought to look when at its best, there is not much point in even approaching the question of a "unified field of iron tsuba preservation and cleaning methods." Of course, the problem with this point of view is that it's no doubt naive to hope for any sort of consensus on what state of preservation would foster the ideal appearance/aesthetic expression of an iron tsuba.

 

Hmmm... It seems we may be back where we started. Maybe it's just me... :? But I feel that at least the issues are clearer, that I understand better where the tensions are, and so perhaps can better work toward a position/opinion that is therefore better informed, even if there is no shortage of polarization among the various viewpoints. Thanks to all who have been so kind as to offer opinions and thoughts on this rather vexing question... I do appreciate it...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Ford Hallam]

I suppose the holy grail would be for tsuba to form a 1/20th of a millimetre thick layer of "misawite. Misawite is a compound of iron, oxygen and hydrogen which does not rust.

 

The Iron Pillar of Dehli

 

For the actual research that elaborates on this phenomena, here's a pdf file.

This a pretty "in depth" but of research and also provides a very good overview of the process of iron corrosion. It's not as simple as many would like to imagine

 

What is of particular interest is the importance of phosphorus in forming this passive, protective layer. Swordsmiths, today, regard the presence of phosphorus in their steel to be something to be eliminated. For more on the production of Watetsu see here.

 

It could be that earlier, well preserved sukashi tsuba were in fact made from steel/iron that did include a certain degree of slag and phosphate thus allowing for a more robust patina formation. The more refined, and characterless, steel produced in the Edo period, while technologically more sophisticated may in fact be more vulnerable to corrosion.

[Steve Waszak]

Fascinating. Thanks, Ford... I think your speculation on the iron differences between pre-Edo and Edo iron tsuba has intriguing possibilities. After all, if the climate in Japan didn't change from one period to the next, and if the sword-wearing habits in the culture didn't change (meaningfully in the context of exposing iron to the elements), what it seems we'd be left with is the compositional nature of the guards themselves (and yes, I do note a difference, at least in tendency, of the later guards to rust, not just more than the earlier tsuba, but more evenly across the plate, too).

 

Great stuff. Thanks again, Ford...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[xxlotus8xx]

Wow. As a novice facing the rust problem and seeking a way to restore a very old tsuba and running across this thread I thought it was a godsend. But boy oh boy am I completely confused as a lot of the advise and guidance seems a complete contradiction. Use oil, don't use oil, remove rust only when the moon is new on the solstice month, etc.... I was also told by someone who I would consider quite senior to use bone and grind rust off (the ivory method?).

I guess what I am getting is do whatever works for you as you are ultimately the person who has to look at it. As long as the taboos of modern chemicals and power tolls are avoided.

Sorry, just had to get my thoughts in. And actually this is a very informative thread so thank you for that.

And here is the tsuba in question.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx ... 719267187/

Also I was going to ask about copper cleanup but I am fearful..

[sanjuro]

Ray.

 

Copper cleanup is easy......... Just remember that just about anything you do to copper will remove the patina. Golden rule is: DON'T!

Short of a wash in warm water using a very mild soap and only between the hands, there isnt a great deal that you can safely do to patinated copper, without exposing the raw metal. Even this basic cleansing is frowned upon by many collectors.

[Pete Klein]

It was mentioned above that the Kaneiye Deer (Kasuga-no) tsuba had been cleaned. This got me to thinking perhaps I could find a picture of the tsuba prior to cleaning which I was successful at. Please go back to page three where I have added it for comparison.

[Alan Morton]

Hi Pete, it would appear to my eye that the Kaneiye has deteriorated since 1952 through not

cleaning or no maintenance while on exhibit out in open air even tho in a cabinet.

 

 

Alan.