Ono Yoshimitsu test

[Jamie]

I'm following the thread. Nice idea

 

Jamie

[outlier48]

Based on the way the kanji were formed in the pic Eric posted I am going to guess "A" is legit and "B" is gimei.

 

Whatever the correct answer, I think we are all going to learn quite a bit when Mike reveals the "why's and wherefore's" on this.

 

 

 

Charlie Brashear

[David Flynn]

I'll go for both genuine, unless they were faked by the same smith :?

[Lee Bray]

I hadn't commented as my answer has already been given.

A is real.

B is real but Yoshimitsu makes copies of older works and I think this is an example, hence the 'shortened' nakago that still looks pristine.

 

However, now knowing there are convincing fakes of his out there, I'm not so sure.

[Eric H]

I appreciate those friendly comments very much :D

Eric

[tetsugendo11]

To All,

I am glad to see such an interest in this subject. It is always fun and educational even though the original reason was not really good. Ono san is quite upset and would appreciate if everyone would be on the lookout for these forgerys!

Thank you,

Mike

[tetsugendo11]

Oh do you guys want the answer? Sorry just had to do that! Also in MOST cases, Ono's nakago jiri is usually done in the osuiage style. Sometimes it is done in the normarl kuri jiri fashion, and almost always kuri jiri when doing wakizashi and tanto.

[tetsugendo11]

So to make things clear "A" is teh forgery, "B" is the genuine example

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Ono san is quite upset and would appreciate if everyone would be on the lookout for these forgerys!

 

Educational, even if sad.

[Brian]

Mike,

Any info on the source of these? It would appear as though they would either have to be shinsakuto marked fraudulently, or be Gendaito signed gimei?

The first option is really scary for the sword world.

Thanks for the exercise, very interesting and educational. Ono san can count on the forum for any support or assistance that we can provide.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

Unfortunate indeed. Ono-san is a truely a gem of a man and to say that he is a talented smith is a great understatement. He also holds his work to a very VERY high personal standard. Any work out there with even minor kizu should be considered forgeries as he does not allow them out of his shop. Any sword that does not meet his approval for high quality is broken over the anvil. I examined one of his Yamatoriige utsushi at a past Dai Token Ichi. It was gorgeous, but not for sale. I assumed it was perhaps just the dealer's personal blade on display. Later I asked Ono-san about the sword and if it belonged to someone, and he said basically "yes, it's mine". I asked if it was for sale and he replied he could not sell it because during the polishing a small ware had come up. I had looked at the sword for quite a long time and did not notice anything and told him so. He replied that it was very small and not conspicuous, but still not acceptable to send to a customer. By the time it came up it was too far into the polish so now he just keeps it for himself and for display only and it will never be for sale.

 

So as much as looking at mei is good exercise, again I just want to point out that the work must confirm the mei. In the case of Ono Yoshimitsu, if the work looks shoddy, it is not his blade.

 

Thanks for bringing this up Mike. Great exercise. It didn't even occur to me that I'd never seen "Ono" as part of his mei.

[Curran]

Mike,

 

To be 100% clear, I understand the date variation and the 'Ono' variation, but the chippy 'Yoshi' is actually the correct one?

 

Usually a bad sign on soft metal fittings signatures, but correct in this case?

Working from the examples Eric or someone else posted, I would have thought that A was a better match (being more relaxed) would have been more likely to be correct.

[Ted Tenold]

Mike,

It would appear as though they would either have to be shinsakuto marked fraudulently, or be Gendaito signed gimei?

 

My suspicion is the former. There are so many "old" swords (that look like late showa or heisei period work) with "old" papers being offered that I suspect these are being made to this day.

 

The first option is really scary for the sword world.

 

No different than any other period where the same practice has been occuring. As long as there is valuable and/or popular art, there will be counterfeits. Education such as this thread and beyond, is the best defense. But as long as there are folks willing to step up and buy in ignorance or passionate delusion, counterfeiters will earn a living.

 

We must be ever vigilant.

[tetsugendo11]

According to the info I have from Japan, the blades are shinsakuto by a lesser smith (not to be mentioned yet),

And Curran yes the "chippy" one is the real one. I will foward your comments to Ono san if you wish - This is a rare situation in which the faked artist is still alive and things can be verified for sure, not like the numerous Gassan School fakes of Takahashi Sadatsugu and Kiyomaro that are shinsakuto by lower smiths that have been appearing on ebay for the last 2-3 years by a dealer that will be not named by me. Beware, study!

[Curran]

Mike,

 

I seem to be infinitely more comfortable with fittings signatures than sword signatures. Just the way it is. I'm just trying to follow an interesting thread where you are correct in that you have the smith alive to verify.

 

Yoshihara san or someone once was signing a sword and story goes he wasn't happy with a particular strike, looked up and said "100 years, this 'gimei'" with a smile. Maybe urban nihonto legend, but makes for a good point.

 

Don't pass my comment back to the smith. My own signature being rather stiff lackluster cursive that it is, who the hell am I to comment on someone else's signature?

[Nobody]

There is a mei which is very similar to your fake example A. I found the similar mei on an old page of a known shop in Tokyo, though I doubt that the page is still valid.

Ref. http://www.token-net.com/katana/3k600-y ... mitsu.html

 

I show the mei© along with the example A in the attached picture. The mei also includes “Ono”, and the date does not have anything after “Haru” either.

 

Is it also a fake?

[k morita]

B- According to informtion from Japan,When Ono san signed a sword,

he never uses formal name "Ono" as part of the signature.

 

The mei also appears a photo of Tachi-sword " Ono " on page 130 on [Modern Japanese swords and swordsmiths: from 1868 to the present] by Leon Kapp.

And He used "Ono" on Tachi sword on Shinsakuto Exhibition.

http://www.tousyoukai.jp/19th/index.shtml

[christianmalterre]

Thank you Morita-San,

 

so this means(in eventuallity that the treat-beginning firsts post Nakago A should be a faked one?) that i once owned a fake

But O.K.-just keep :D

 

Either way-great post!

 

Christian

[tetsugendo11]

The example that was posted by morita san has been sent for verification. I just advise all to be cautious until things are sorted out, they are working on this in Japan,and I was asked to warn the western collectors. I do not doubt that some forgerys have slipped by many a shop when sold as used second hand swords.

[tetsugendo11]

Now seems to be the time when even shinsakuto and even wartime gendaito must be studied harder as we study older blades. At our meeting last friday night, a collector brought a sword signed Kiyomaro, which was an obvious shinsakuto. I asked the owner if he would like to possible know who the actual maker of the sword was, as I just happened to have a nice example that was like as clone of his blade. My sword was genuine mei made by Higo kaneaki from the Yashiro Kimurs family in Kumamoto. Everything the same, yasuri mei, tang shape, sugata, deki etc.......just the name on the tang was different! I do not wish this to be a controversal string, it was meant to warn honest collectors and dealers at the request of some friends in Japan, including my friend who knows Ono san very well.

[tetsugendo11]

oh, and another quick note, I know of a collector that bought a REAL Saijo saku maker named sword that was ubu 1 hole......But the tang was welded to a beautiful wide long healthy shinsakuto...........this is rare but just be aware guys!

[Eric H]

This is a rare situation in which the faked artist is still alive

I suppose that the forgers identity at present is unknown. Well, the Nakago test gave evidence of the forgers skill, but how about the characteristics in the blade?... Hada, Hamon, Hataraki and so on...and how many blades approximately are proven to be gi-mei?... or have we to think of one blade? I can imagine to forge Yoshimitsu's characteristics must be very difficult.

 

Some examples of Yoshimitsu's Hamon.

 

Eric

[Ted Tenold]

I just looked through the book, "Ono Yoshimitsu's World of Juka Choji" which is a catalog illustrating 12 of his works. In every single example, including 2 wakizashi, the season noted is followed by "kichi jitsu", and none of the examples carry "Ono" in the inscription.

 

This sword was in the catalog I've referenced;

 

http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/mai ... _itemId=29

[tetsugendo11]

So far I have heard that the image is not too clear for detail in the mei. but it was advised to advance very cautiously in regards to the blade on the Token Sugita site. Remember there are some politeness issues here in regards to saying things about someone elses listed items. But from the pics listed, the deki doesn't seem to be as good as other Ono I have seen.........

[k morita]

I just looked through the book, "Ono Yoshimitsu's World of Juka Choji" which is a catalog illustrating 12 of his works. In every single example, including 2 wakizashi, the season noted is followed by "kichi jitsu", and none of the examples carry "Ono" in the inscription.

This sword was in the catalog I've referenced;

http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/mai ... _itemId=29

 

Hi Ted, :D

 

The book [Ono Yoshimitsu's World of Juka Choji] was published in 1991.

Data is old.

[Nobody]

I just looked through the book, "Ono Yoshimitsu's World of Juka Choji" which is a catalog illustrating 12 of his works. In every single example, including 2 wakizashi, the season noted is followed by "kichi jitsu", and none of the examples carry "Ono" in the inscription.

..............................

And logically, that proves nothing.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Mike, it would be great to know the sources of the info about absence of "Ono" and how the date is signed or to have such information confirmed by Ono himself thru another post of yours. These important details seems to be a little confusing at the light of other posts in this thread.

 

[attachment=0]setsume.jpg[/attachment]

[Ted Tenold]

The book [Ono Yoshimitsu's World of Juka Choji] was published in 1991.

Data is old.

 

Nearly all the references we use are "old data". :lol: Never-the-less, they are the data we employ regularly in our studies. Also the data I provided is very close to the same period of which the blade in question is dated, and thus is fairly concurrent.

 

 

And logically, that proves nothing.

 

Just as logically, it dis-proves nothing either. Again, it was only a contribution of more data, and since one cannot prove a negative, I cannot prove that Ono Yoshimitsu did not do something.

 

I will also say that the catalogs I have of the Shinsaku presentations for the years 1998, 2001, 2005, and 2006 all have examples of Ono Yoshimitsu swords and all have "Ono" included in their mei. So perhaps there was a transition in his career where he began to include it? I think this needs further validation from Ono Yoshimitsu himself.

 

I cannot provide any proof of anything. I am only contributing more data to the conversation. When considering validity of any piece, I look at work first, and signatures second, but we don't have that luxury here.

[Brian]

This thread is obviously a minefield, and one that I tread cautiously...

But the info is very pertinent and relevant, so I would like to see how this one plays out. Excellent info and pics have been submitted, but obviously nothing is proven unless....well.....proven

I encourange more info but let's remember that this subject needs to be treated delicately. I would be very hesitant to make any hard and fast rules just yet on the validity (or lack of) of these assorted mei.

 

Brian

[tetsugendo11]

I agree with Brian, I was just doing a favor by passing on information that I felt was needed to be known by all in the sword world. I feel it is important for all to know and beware of fraud and fakes, especially when collecting in an honest fashion. I am currently waiting for more information, but I guess because of the way this string is going, when I have some free time I will contact Ono personally about this matter.I wonder how many of the boards members actually own an Ono sword? Or how many are considering purchasing one. These people are the main ones that should be concerned first, and if any of you that actually own an Ono sword and are worried, please e-mail me an oshigata or tang pic and I will include it with the other material I will get to Ono san. I personally believe that this selling of new fakes (not just those of Ono san)should be stopped, and soon.