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Ono Yoshimitsu test

tetsugendo11

By tetsugendo11
in Nihonto

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george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

Posted
Posted

I can only go on oshigata I have access to, and I know nothing about the post-war shinsakuto smiths. Comparing your A and B to my examples, I would say that neither matches the kanji for Yoshi and Mitsu, especially Mitsu, so from this alone it would seem that both are suspect, BUT, as smiths are known to vary their styles for certain reasons, this may not be a truly definitive indicator....sorry if I seem to be having a bet each way, but I don't have enough data.

Regards,

George.

hybridfiat Community Regular

hybridfiat

Posted
Posted

B appears to have been chisled in a hesitant manner as though the smith was thinking about the direction. A has more confidence about it, so since I have no reference to go by my guess is A is the true signature.

christianmalterre Mentor

christianmalterre

Posted
Posted

A is genuine and unaltered.

B is(may be)genuine Japanese Sword but Suri-Age and Shin-Mei.

(Have a close look-Identifiable on the execution of the Bo-Hi and distance to Mekugi-Ana to distance to Kanji)

By the way-the Signature of B is also a correct one,-just not as usual expected by him.So-?

Christian

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

Posted
Posted

I'm intrigued...both are genuine mei...can you comment on why the mei kanji are so different from the kanji in the mei shown on p.127 of Kapp & Yoshihara "Modern Japanese Swords and S/smiths"?...especially "Mitsu"?

Also...are you saying that the suriage blade was made new as a suriage? Or was it shortened and the bo-hi and the mei put on at the same time as shortening?

And...how does this suriage? shinsakuto stand, not being "ubu", in terms of evaluation for future shinsa?

Regards,

George.

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

Posted
Posted

Eric,

the photo you show has the same "Bizen Kuni" and "Mitsu" as the Kapp and Yoshihara oshigata (page 127) I cited above...which is dated 1997...I would be interested to know the date of the sword in your photo....I predict after 1991.

Your original "B" oshigata dated 1991 has the same " suriage style" nakago as the photo, but different kuni and "Mitsu". From these facts I conclude that the "suriage style" nakago on "B" is correct. The mei on "B" is probably correct for 1991, but afterwards changed to the location and "Mitsu" style on the photo, which I think will be later than 1991. Therefore, it is probable (by my reasoning), that "B" is shoshin of an earlier work of Ono Yoshimitsu.

Regards,

George.

Eric H Mentor

Eric H

Posted
Posted

George,

 

I have only that picture of the Nakago from the internet. It is in my opinion quite normal that in the career of a Swordsmith his "mei" undergoes subtle changes, for instance as in "mitsu"... there are also other details. I have no access to the Kapp/Yoshihara book. Moreover it is most likely as Guido states, the "suriage style" Nakago points to a Utsushimono. In the picture I have attached on the left side is ...?...Sukezane. Perhaps a hint this sword is a work "after" Bizen Sukezane?

 

Eric

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

Posted
Posted

I'd say both are correct. The finite details that differ still carry the stylistic character of his hand. There was, within the past 15 or 20 years, a short lived trend of creating shinsaku utsushimono of older suriage and osuriage works, some of which even had elaborate (and very healthy) horimono deep into the nakago, yet signed by their makers in contemporary fashion. Seeing the works of these types was a bit bizarre. Looking at them I had to wonder what folks a couple hundred years from now would think about them. :lol:

christianmalterre Mentor

christianmalterre

Posted
Posted

Dear gents,

O.k.-i see-this is eventually mine mistake in judging just from the Oshigata-i just can´t see why such an new sword shall get an "Suri-Age-styled" Nakago with additional Mekugi-Ana-when i see such execution in Shinsaku-To i do get cautious.

After seeing the photo now i think this execution of Nakago is intended due special reason the smith had.

 

I would like to see the Boshi/Kissaki now-so to have a better chance to evaluate.....

 

With the signature i still am very cautious.....

 

Let me know(By the way-thank you for this post Ted-excellent comment! :) )

 

Christian

tetsugendo11 Contributor

tetsugendo11

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Nice to see everyones comments, There is a REAL reason behind this so bear with me. The Oshigatas were sent by Ono san to my friend for me to teach everyone about this situation that has arisen. Some unscrupulous sword maker and same type of dealer is selling Ono fakes both here and in Japan. recently there have been many "Faked" shinsakuto/ and shinsakuto that have been faked for older gendai and even older blades such as Kiyomaro. Beware if they have the notoriuos "green" paper, trust only Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon), or send a letter to the NBTHK to verify a papers authenticity.

I will post the answer soon,with the points of importance.

Mike

george trotter Grand Master

george trotter

Posted
Posted

Wow...interesting thread Mike...I don't follow post-war shinsakuto so was not aware of the utsushimono among them...I do agree with the comment that the suriage sword in the photo was probably made "after Bizen Sukezane" as it is so marked...the oshi one is not so marked however. You may be interested to know that this "unscrupulous" behavior has occurred with gendaito before...one reason why the so-called "military stamps" were introduced c.1939 is that many swordsmiths were making undetected copies of current and shinshinto/shinto swords and passing them off with gimei for much more than the price their own Taisho and Showa period shoshin swords would command. It is also known that a lot of "suriage" swords were new-made specifically to appear "correct" for the older blades commonly mounted in gunto koshirae 1868-1945, but were usually mu-mei. What a pity it is happening again.

I look forward to the outcome of this intriguing tale.

Regards,

George.

Eric H Mentor

Eric H

Posted
Posted
i just can´t see why such an new sword shall get an "Suri-Age-styled" Nakago

Strictly speaking this is not accurate, the jiri of B is slightly curved, a suriage Nakago is mostly straight cut. The forger of Ono Yoshimitsu's swords must be extremely skillful, normally a smith's characteristics are present in the blade, his "handwriting", and the "mei" is like a concluding confirmation of its authenticity, and now it seems that minimal variations in the "mei" can be proof of the forgerie. However Yoshimitsu's swords are very expensive and a prospective buyer needs obviously an additional certificate by Mr. Ono.

Eric

post-369-141967824211_thumb.jpg

Eric H Mentor

Eric H

Posted
Posted
so how long are we stretching this out?

Obviously people are not interested to follow this topic. I tried to delete my last post but was not successful.

Eric

Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

Posted
Posted

Eric

 

I like what you posted and should help members make up their mind, but I think just about everyone who was going to give a answer has, hence my post. With your forever loyal help to the board it has made it a better place, thanks for your many well received post.

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Eric,

Please don't..I think that was a great post, and fantastic future reference.

Give it some time....many in the West are only waking up now, and many of us use Sunday to compare mei etc. It has only been a few hours :)

Let's not rush things, this is an excellent topic. Once again your accumulated references amaze me Eric :bowdown:

 

Brian

Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

Posted
Posted

has it only been a day...im stuck at home and been getting off and on way to much, need to give the PC a break. Sorry

 

 

edit.

went back to check ...only a few hours.???...had me worried Brian....more like 48 hours :phew: thought oldtimers was getting really bad

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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