Koshirae mounting for a shirasaya blade and ebay blade

[Hobbes1911]

Hello,

 

I just joined this forum so hello to everyone.

 

Allow me to quickly introduce myself. Ever since I can think I have been attracted to all edged weapons (I've been fencing for ~9 years now), mainly 'samurai swords', but due to my financial standings (I'm 24 and a graduate student) I never really had the chance to seriously even consider becoming a collector, yet have always dreamed of owning several nihonto. I currently live in Michigan US, but will be moving to Boston soon to start my graduate studies. One question I have is if there are any known good stores or museums around the east coast that I can go look at some real swords?

 

Lately, with my admittance to the graduate program I decided to treat myself to a shirasaya mounted blade or even full koshirae mounted blade. And then there was ebay and some money left over from my job, so I did it and bought a blade. I have the collecting fever. It's strikes me about once a year and this time there was some black in the bank account. Yes agree yell at me, however I would like to learn and become as knowledgeable as I can and will try to read the recommended books.

 

I bought a blade in shirasaya mounting and I was wondering if there is a way to possibly obtain a koshirae mounting for this blade. The koshirae was not offered with the blade and I do realize that each blade and koshirae are different.

 

Also I am considering this blade as well: http://cgi.ebay.com/LONG-WAKIZASHI-NAKA ... 439fc24920 Please let me know what you guys are thinking about it - just to stress the severity of the collecting fever and I need to stop, because the black doesn't stretch that far.

 

Any thoughts, directions, advice or other forms of help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you very much and I am looking forward to becoming a knowledgeable and constructive collector and member of this community.

 

Simon Maisel

[jason_mazzy]

study the pictures. and look "deep" into the blade. you may see some things that will influence your opinion away from the blade.

[tagonagy]

The Boston Museum of fine arts has a rather nice display of Japanese arms and armor. The Metroplitan Museum of art's display, in NYC, is quite good too. There is a museum of arms and armor in Worchester, MA, but I went there only once, and that was more than twenty years ago.

 

I strongly reccomend getting in touch with a sword club/tokenkai. Boston seems to have had a tokenkai at one time. Here is the info I managed to find at nihonto.com: BOSTON TOKEN KAI - Meetings held 3rd Thursday, monthly. Contact Rad Smith, Box 26, Newton, Mass. 02159. New York has a tokenkai that is quite active http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/. I've been to a few of their meetings and the members always bring several nice swords. The really great thing about a tokenkai is that you can handle the swords and learn how to examine and appreciate a nihonto. Members can also give you leads on dealers and shows.

 

Hope this helps.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Simon,

 

There have been numerous discussions about koshirae and mounting swords on this site and suggest using the search option to seek them out.

 

The sword linked appears, at least to these tired eyes, to be a Kaga sword, search out Kaga combined with associative words like nihonto and learn as much as you can. But, before you do suggest reading http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Collecting.pdf , and http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/gdsword.htm

 

Another suggestion is learn and study the history of nihonto making, including the "gokaden". Then, based upon what you learn write out a set of objectives for yourself to pursue when seeking out swords, so that you're not just throwing darts at a board and hoping to hit an acceptable mark. Use kantei steps along with the NBTHK shinsa standards to help in this task. http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

[loiner1965]

looks like its been in a marathon as its tired

[cabowen]

You will not have much luck contacting Mr. Rad Smith as he has been deceased for many years now....

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Simon,

I recently wrote an answer to part of your question for the Board's FAQ. I don't think Brian used it there so here it is.

Grey

 

I HAVE MY 1ST SWORD, I WANT TO GET IT POLISHED AND OR REMOUNTED, WHAT SHOULD I DO?

 

Slow down Grasshopper; take some time to learn more about Nihonto. With a little more knowledge and experience you may discover that you’re glad you didn’t make those expensive moves.

Pretty much all beginners start this way; they want to own the flashiest sword possible. But in the case of polish, you might find once you’ve a few years study under your belt, that you wish you’d saved your money to spend on a better sword to have polished. Polishes are expensive, and unless the sword is good quality, you won’t recover the price of polish when you decide to sell and move up.

And the same goes for remounting your blade. If your blade is in military mounts or shira-saya (plain wooden) and you want to assemble Samurai parts for a traditional mount, do so with the understanding that you’ll loose a significant percentage of what you spend when you decide to sell. Collectors are looking for original mounts, not something put together 3 years ago by an amateur.

Learning Nihonto takes time; there is no way around that. Maybe that sword is the one you want to have polished or remounted but study first. You won’t regret it.

[Jamie]

Welcome Simon,

 

There is much good advice here.

Look at swords in hand. Learn what you like, then buy.

 

You may want to consider this : From the Ebay link you provided.

 

"I decline the return of goods of KATANA,WAKIZASHI,TANTO,YARI

and NAGINATA entirely."

 

IMO, Any reputable dealer will offer you a couple day inspection Period.

 

 

Here a are some books to read. Start there.

 

Samurai Sword: A Handbook

~John Yumato

The Japanese Sword: A Comprehensive Guide (Japanese Arts Library)

~ Kanzan Sato

The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords

~ Kokan Nagayama

[jason_mazzy]

Welcome Simon,

 

There is much good advice here.

Look at swords in hand. Learn what you like, then buy.

 

You may want to consider this : From the Ebay link you provided.

 

"I decline the return of goods of KATANA,WAKIZASHI,TANTO,YARI

and NAGINATA entirely."

 

IMO, Any reputable dealer will offer you a couple day inspection Period.

~ Kokan Nagayama

 

While I would normally agree with this, I have been talking to a lot of Japanese dealers, and this seems to be the trend for the majority. Reason being, they say it is a pain in the ass to get nihonto back in for permanenet stay once they turn in the art certificate. I didn't comment much about the sword because i do not want to interfere with his sale in public, but I did pm him about looking "deeper" and finding the right "opening" *wink in the blade.... if you catch my drift.

[Basho12]

As another newbie, I second what everyone else has said. I've been able to limit my own mistakes so far, but just barely. Or as the old saying goes, "He who hesitates is sometimes saved." Also strongly second the mention of the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. I was there in March and they had a really spectacular display of sword furniture/mountings. It was the first time I got to see really fine work that close.

[sanjuro]

Jason

So why not come right out and say you suspect the blade to have kisu or whatever? veiled hints fall on deaf ears when the ears are those of someone who doesnt understand them.

You might, and I stress might, see some fault in the blade, but if Simon doesnt understand what it is he should be looking for, then a book would be a better purchase than a blade on ebay. Actually, a book is definately better than a risky purchase on ebay for a beginner, at least its better than one beginner leading another beginner into confusion.

[Hobbes1911]

Hello,

 

Thank you all for being so helpful. As much as I have always loved the swords, I think I am starting to understand the beginnings of the depth of knowledge associated and needed with this hobby. I will spend the remaining money on the mentioned books.

 

The hint that the sword blade is flawed I understood, but most honestly, I have no idea what I am supposed to look at. As such, and mostly as a learning experience, which pictures show the flaw the best and where is it? Also are there picture books or catalogs that have lots of pictures so that I can start developing an eye for sword quality.

 

Thank you all though,

 

Simon

[outlier48]

Simon, depending on where you live you might find a sword club nearby. At their meetings you can ask lots of questions, see and hold swords, and learn much from the time you invest. This, of course, is in addition to any books you might acquire in your study process. As to the area where the sword in question might have flaws, I leave that answer to those with better eyes than mine.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Brashear

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Simon,

Look at the picture of the whole blade, and especially at the area either side of the ha-machi (notch at the start of the edge). When a sword is polished a bit of the sword disappears. After too many polishes the ha-machi can disappear; the edge is ground back far enough that the blade width at the machi is the same width as the top of the nakago. This sword has a ha-machi only because the last few polishes left the area above the nakago alone, which gives the blade a skirt above the machi, and because the top of the edge of the nakago has been ground back. If this weren't the case the ha of the nakago would be a consistent curve to the machi and the ha above the machi would be consistently curved also.

When a sword has been polished too many times the core steel (shin-tetsu) can start to show through. This often shows as featureless dark patches of steel and unusually coarse grain. Can you see any of this on the sword in question?

Grey

[Hobbes1911]

Hi,

 

I have to admit, I am reading a few of the suggested articles, and am waiting for the books to come in, and I really knew very little about nihonto, not that I know that much more now. As a learning exercise, what would you guys think of this sword: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT ?

 

Simon

[moss]

Hello Simon,

 

At least in this Ebay listing the seller has stated the blade has hagire.

(Some do some don't)

Which in plain speak is a crack ,so I would think IMHO that you may as well donate the money to the board.

 

 

Find a reputable dealer near you and have a good look at what they offer.

Ebay may end up a very steep and expensive learning curve.

 

Cheers

 

Moss

[sanjuro]

Simon.

 

Do yourself a huge favour and stay away from ebay. Its a trap for newbies. Any sword on ebay should be treated with a healthy skepticism. I apologise to the members here who sell swords on ebay, since I am confident that they at least are honest in their dealings and careful in thier descriptions. However, ebay is not generally speaking, a friendly place to budding nihontophiles. Lack of knowledge and experience invariably leads them into a hasty and ill informed purchase.

 

If it looks too good to be true, then it usually is. Good stuff isnt cheap and cheap stuff isnt good.

[Hobbes1911]

The ebay posting wasn't an attempt of me to buy. I was merely trying to understand some of the flaws of the blades and thought that some of the ebay blades might be a good starting point. I have understood the message to stop all buying and start reading. I have already ordered several books, so that I can start expanding my knowledge. I also have found some helpful websites online with pictures already and "understand" that hagire would represent a special form of tempering crack. However, what I don't understand yet is why some tempering cracks are ok and why others specifically a hagire would be so terrible. Could anyone explain please?

 

Thank you all for all your help.

 

Simon

[hybridfiat]

This is hagire, a crack running horizontal/or nearly to the hamon. A fatal crack is where it runs right through the hamon. Read these pages it will help.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/restoration.html#3)

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/flaws.html

[sanjuro]

Simon.

 

To answer your question at least partly in as simple a way as possible. Any crack, fault or flaw in a blade, is to a greater or lesser degree, potentially a compromise in the blades integrity. As such, some flaws are more serious than others depending on depth, location and extent. A forging flaw can be a fatal fault if it is of a kind that weakens the blade. Some flaws on the other hand are merely a surface fault and their presence does not indicate that the blade itself may be weakened, they are merely unsightly.

The references given will at least give you an understanding of the dozen or so different kinds of fault and their severity.

[nagamaki - Franco]

However, what I don't understand yet is why some tempering cracks are ok and why others specifically a hagire would be so terrible. Could anyone explain please?

 

Hello Simon,

 

Nihonto are first and foremost a weapon. Therefore, any flaw which threatens the structure of the sword in such a manner that can result in catastrophic failure during its use is regarded as a fatal flaw. Then, there are those flaws which are non-fatal, "ok" , and, although sometimes visibly displeasing, they do not threaten catastrophic structural failure.

[Nautilus]

Simon.

 

Do yourself a huge favour and stay away from ebay. Its a trap for newbies. Any sword on ebay should be treated with a healthy skepticism. I apologise to the members here who sell swords on ebay, since I am confident that they at least are honest in their dealings and careful in thier descriptions. However, ebay is not generally speaking, a friendly place to budding nihontophiles. Lack of knowledge and experience invariably leads them into a hasty and ill informed purchase.

 

If it looks too good to be true, then it usually is. Good stuff isnt cheap and cheap stuff isnt good.

 

Aye. While there are (for which fact I can speak) a number of reputable dealers on eBay, it can be akin to walking a minefield for the uninitiated.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

As a learning exercise,

 

You should start to learn from nice examples in good polish, and handling them with a mentor.

Trying to find out defects from poor internet pictures of an out of polish blade is very difficult and risky.

[hybridfiat]

As someone new to this with fresh memories of recent mistakes and near misses Id like to add my twopenneth. A major trap is to see a blade that is going "cheap" and to think that all you have to do is polish it and "Bobs your uncle" a bargain! It dont work like that. To get a good resale or respect for a touched up blade it has to be done by an expert and they cost big money.

The closest analogy I can get is restoring old cars. It almost always involves losing money on the resale unless you are bloody lucky or an expert.