Stephen Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 It has been brought to my attention that if a sword was to go to shinsa in Nippon and found to be a NT it can be kept by the Government. Please some clarification. Don't know why I thought I read that was not the case. Please correct me.
Justin Grant Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 It is my understanding (in reading) that this is not the case. The only NT's on register are in country, if an item is not accounted for, it is removed from the list of NT's. If it reappears, it is not "kept". It is somehow listed on a register as to its location. But I do not believe it is kept. I also read where if a NT is offered for sale from a private collection, the GVT gets first option at purchase, so these items are usually listed for sale at the end of the fiscal year so money is tight reducing the option of the GVT purchasing it. I could be wrong, but this is what I read on several sites that offer Shinsa services.
Jamie Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 I also read that them being able to keep property is a Myth. I haven't sent anything yet though. I think anyone that sends things off for shinsa would know for sure.
cabowen Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 You would have to submit the sword to the government to get the Kokuho rating. It is not given out by any of the sword organizations. If you are foolish enough to submit a sword to the government and it receives the rating, maybe you deserve not to be able to export it..... I have never heard of anyone importing a sword and having it taken by the government because of kokuho status.
Grey Doffin Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 My understanding: At the end of WWII the US and the other countries involved signed a treaty governing the return of art treasures. If the piece in question was somehow recognized by the home country as a treasure before the war, after the war that country can demand return. The pre-war Kokuho, Bizen Saburo Kunimune tachi that Dr. Compton found and returned to Japan is a good example. If I'm correct about the treaty, had Dr. Compton not voluntarily returned the sword, Japan could have demanded its return. Anyone know more or better? Grey
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 Don't know why I thought I read that was not the case. What about your friend Mr. G ? (last lines) http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... Letter.htm Topic on SFI already addressed. You are right.
drbvac Posted June 9, 2010 Report Posted June 9, 2010 Oh to be worried about this type of problem. In Guido's article he mentions Jûyô-Bunkazai, but I noticed AOI has a sword listed as Juyo Bijutsu-hin, which can NOT be shipped out of the country. Its only around 18 grand US so I am not concerned that he can't ship it to me but I have no idea what this designation means?
k morita Posted June 10, 2010 Report Posted June 10, 2010 Hi, Treasure hunter Stephen, :D Aoso, Iesuke家助 (The pre-war Kokuho,Tachi) was returned from U.S,. However, because the price was too high, former owner(Shinto shrine) was not able to be bought it, in this case. Afterwards, another Japanese had bought it in Japan. Maybe,Japanese government had made the lost national treasures list(sword) that had been written in English in around 1950. I have not seen it yet.
Guido Posted June 10, 2010 Report Posted June 10, 2010 Maybe,Japanese government had made the lost national treasures list(sword) that had been written in English in around 1950. I have not seen it yet. According to Albert Yamanaka they are: Honjô Masamune 2-1-5 Kuniyuki 2-4-9 Aoe Masatsune 2-5-3 2 Chokutô with Hôô Koshirae, 2-2-5 and 2-4-8 respectively Rai Kunimitsu 2-5-8 Kunihihro Kamakura Jûnin / Bumpô 2-shu 2-gatsu Nichi 1-1-1-5 Bishû Osafune Iesuke / Ôei 21-nen 2-gatsu Nichi 2-4-3 Nagamitsu 2-2-2 Botan-zukuri Tantô 8-8 Keitô Tachi 2-2-5 Norishige 2-1 Sôshû Jû Akihiro 2-1 Shumenosuke Ichinohira Yasuyo 2-8-1-5 not listed: Hotarumaru Rai Kunitoshi 3-3-1-3
k morita Posted June 10, 2010 Report Posted June 10, 2010 Hi, Mr.Schiller, Thank you very much for the info. What is the title of Nakayama book? Especially, it is very regrettable that Honjo-Masamune, Hotarumaru and Botanzukuri-tanto(koshigatana) have been not found yet. Botanzukuri-Koshi-gatana-mount was a national treasure though the value of Tanto blade is low. This Botanzukuri-Koshigatana-mount is very very gorgeous mount (Nanbokucho era).
Guido Posted June 10, 2010 Report Posted June 10, 2010 What is the title of Nakayama book? The "Nihonto Newsletters" by Albert Yamanaka: http://www.ncjsc.org/pubs_4_sale.htm
k morita Posted June 10, 2010 Report Posted June 10, 2010 Thank you very much for the link. Recently, I obtained the scroll written "Honjo Masamune". This is not Oshigata but a hand-writing. The writing of the temper-line is written the feature of Masamune sword well very much though I have not believe this drawing 95%.
Brian Posted June 20, 2010 Report Posted June 20, 2010 Morita san, That is a very interesting drawing, and if real then an important one. Are you saying you are 95% sure the pic is real, or are you saying you only give 5% chance it is correct? It certainly looks the part. Brian
k morita Posted June 21, 2010 Report Posted June 21, 2010 Hi, Brian, I think that this scroll is not a copy of [Kanzan Oshigata](4 scroll Oshigata book by Sato Kanzan). This scroll is about 8 meters in the total length,and writing 10 swords that is written near an original size. The existing sword(Sukezane,Meibutsu Inaba Go), a sword that is already burnt down(Meibutsu Hachiya Go and Kii Go ), and the lost sword(Meibutsu Honjo Masamune) are written in the scroll. Now, I am researching this scroll .
Brian Posted June 21, 2010 Report Posted June 21, 2010 Fantastic. Do the other drawings match any known oshigata? Please do keep us updated. Wow...8m long! Brian
Wah Posted July 2, 2010 Report Posted July 2, 2010 K Morita, Hey good oshigata find!! I may be mistaken, but I think this is the same oshigata in a scroll called Token Shokwan collected by the late Viscount Okubo Ichiwo 1817-1887, once governor of Tokyo and member of Genro-in. Part of a 34 scroll/8 book set. There is a similar but different oshigata of same sword in scroll number 13 of this set. Also, doesn't Yamanaka Newsletters say the BotanTsukuri tanto was found but didn't sell due to the high asking price? Stephen Thorpe
k morita Posted July 2, 2010 Report Posted July 2, 2010 Mr.Thorpe "Xuande " is a name of an era of Ming Dynasty in China. :D Thank you for the important information in the first posting. Are you owning the Token Shokwan 34 scroll/8 book set? Because Okubo Ichiwo's an ancestor or relative's Okubo Tadayori who was a researcher about the swords history etc, so I think that Okubo Ichiwo also owned some materials. I will study about Okubo Ichiwo. The most recently,I bought "Nihonto Newsletter", by Albert Yamanaka, 4Vol the complete set from NCJSC. And, I was surprised because the translation of Meibutsu-Cho and the list of missing national treasure sword etc. appeared. The article on Botanzukuri-Tanto(koshigatana) and Hotaru-maru are very interesting. Regards.
Wah Posted July 2, 2010 Report Posted July 2, 2010 Morita san, If you'd like, just call me Steve. "Mr" Thorpe was my father. :D Thank you for your letter. You are correct about Xuande. I just sold my great grandfathers imitation incense burner for 10K$ and this was the email I used to communicate. I am happy to share information with you. I do not own these scrolls but have access to them. When given permission to view them, I was given specific instructions how to handle them. It was very tedious to get them rolled back correctly like they were. I had very bad neck and back stress afterwards. You will be very happy with Nihonto Newsletter. I like my set very well. May I ask, is there a specific study you are interested in? Stephen Thorpe
k morita Posted July 3, 2010 Report Posted July 3, 2010 Hi Steve, Thank you for your the reply. It is tired to rewind a lot of long scrolls. I learnt Token Shokwan (34 scroll/8 book set) for the first time by your posting. In your seeing it, are the scrolls existence in the United States now? Are the scrolls belongings of individual ownership or a public organization? (Please do not write a concrete name.) I am interested in missing national treasure swords, especially three swords of the Aso shrine now. Of course, I am interested in genuine Oshigata of Meibutsu sword-- Honjo Masamune.
Wah Posted July 4, 2010 Report Posted July 4, 2010 Morita san, The Token Shokwan scrolls can be found in USA at Library of congress in Washington DC. Should you wish to visit, it is best to call or write to request research materials so they can be reserved for your visit. You need a library card to enter Asian reading room. They do not allow photocopying of rare books/ scrolls, but you can carry a camera and take all the photos desired. I would be happy to share my photos with you to save a trip. Good luck in your search, S Thorpe
Chango Posted May 17, 2016 Report Posted May 17, 2016 Hi, Mr.Schiller, Thank you very much for the info. What is the title of Nakayama book? Especially, it is very regrettable that Honjo-Masamune, Hotarumaru and Botanzukuri-tanto(koshigatana) have been not found yet. Botanzukuri-Koshi-gatana-mount was a national treasure though the value of Tanto blade is low. This Botanzukuri-Koshigatana-mount is very very gorgeous mount (Nanbokucho era). Sorry to drag this old thread up but I'm curious about this missing "Botanzukuri-Tanto" koshigatana. A web search revealed nothing for me; can anyone tell me more?
Chango Posted May 17, 2016 Report Posted May 17, 2016 'Cause you guys have better stuff to talk about? It's not like a lot of new and exciting information is coming out of old Japan! Anyway this attitude I keep getting on the forum is tiring and I'm learning a lot more about nihonto in other places. I'll show myself the virtual door for now; it's just not worth my time.
Jean Posted May 18, 2016 Report Posted May 18, 2016 Jason , No offense meant, but what was meaning Stephen is: why revive a six year old topic instead of opening a new one directly aimed to the "botanzukuri tanto" koshigatana? Now, I am very glad that you can learn a lot more about Nihonto in other places. Books are invaluable and probably the best place to begin with. 1
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