Japanese mass produced blade question.

[xxlotus8xx]

Greetings!!

I will keep my question simple in fear of putting my foot in my mouth .

Did the forging techniques of the mass produced WW2 blades produce hamon lines?

 

The reason I ask is my robot internet trolls have produced what appears to be a WW2 Japanese blade but my newbi'ism always leaves me in doubt. I am fairly sure I can purchase the blade for a VERY reasonable price.

The blade itself looks fairly beat up but not totally unrepairable.

Pics (Not so good) are here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx/4684360884/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx/4684360582/

 

Once again the expertise of the board is greatly appreciated.

[estcrh]

Greetings!!

I will keep my question simple in fear of putting my foot in my mouth .

Did the forging techniques of the mass produced WW2 blades produce hamon lines?

 

The reason I ask is my robot internet trolls have produced what appears to be a WW2 Japanese blade but my newbi'ism always leaves me in doubt. I am fairly sure I can purchase the blade for a VERY reasonable price.

The blade itself looks fairly beat up but not totally unrepairable.

Pics (Not so good) are here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx/4684360884/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xxlotus8xx/4684360582/

 

Once again the expertise of the board is greatly appreciated.

If you are talking about machine made blades then the answer is no, there would be no hamon except if it were artificially produced ( acid etched etc) If the sword pictured is a nco ww2 Japanese sword it is not a true nihonto....but it still has a value as a ww2 collectors item.

[moss]

The sword pictured is an NCO,

 

So no hamon and machine made blade,and yes they do have value as a military collectable.

I recently sold 2 at $500 a piece.

Unmatched numbers too.

Bet those that remember them at $30 are cringing.

 

Cheers

 

Moss

[cabowen]

Forging can produce hada, but never hamon. The hamon is created when the blade is differentially hardened via a clay coating, heating, and quenching. Machine made blades can be quenched and usually are in oil. This can produce a hamon but it is different than the traditional water quench.

[moss]

Hello Chris,

 

I have never seen an Aluminium Handled NCO that has a hamon.

Has such a beast been made?

 

Cheers

Moss

[cabowen]

I don't pay too much attention to them but it seems to me I may have seen an oil quenched hamon on one once upon a time....Usually they have an etched "hamon"...

[Stephen]

I knew a naughty fellow at one show who put a nice koto Sukesada in NCO mounts and showed it around....it was fun for a day...then he fessed up. always expect the unexpected in Nihonto. esp at shows.

[moss]

Stephen,

 

That would have been a hell of a gag.

How did you go with the curvature?

 

Cheers

 

Moss

[Stephen]

Not me i didnt do it, cant remember about the fit.

[moss]

Stephen,

 

Just testing.

 

Cheers

Moss

[Wickstrom]

Mass produced WW2 blades were mostly just ordinary pieces of steel milled into the general shape of a samurai sword and then had an arsenal stamp number placed on them. A Hamon is the product of traditional forging and traditional forging only. Although some Aluminium hilted ww2 blades do have a "hamon", it is just acid etched onto the blade to make it look like it has one. Ughh Gaudy indeed.

[cabowen]

A Hamon is the product of traditional forging and traditional forging only.

 

Actually, it is the product of cooling a blade of the proper steel at the proper temperature at the proper rate. It has nothing to do with forging.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

It has nothing to do with forging.

 

 

I don't think so, for sample you cannot find a choji hamon with a pure masame hada.

[cabowen]

The shape of the hamon is simply a stylistic matter. A review of the decadent hamon "paintings" done in the later Edo period should be proof enough of that....

 

A competent smith can create a choji hamon on any forged or unforged blade provided it is the right kind of steel. We don't see pure choji with masame because one is from the Bizen tradition and the other Yamato.

[GregD]

I think there is some confusion about terms and processes here.First off,as far as "NCO" swords are concerned they have nothing to do with "Gunto"(although not discussed in this topic i have seen the referrance to "NCO Gunto") I have only seen two "Showato" blades in NCO mounts,the rest being a lower carbon content steel probably not capable of being heat treated to produce a hamon to begin with,the half a dozen or so that i have worked on (rust removal) you could cut with a file.In the catagory"Gunto"you can find several blade types,first being a basic tool steel that i read a referance to being similar to A-2 tool steel,can be air or oil hardened but the referance i read was that they were air quenched.Any of these i worked on you could also cut with a file althogh this steel can acheave a hardness in the 60 c Rockwell range,and left softer to retain some toughness.These swords have chemically applied hamons. Althogh this is the most basic "Showato" blade I prefer to call them "plain toolsteel blades" and put them in there own catagory."Showato" on the other hand are in the range of blade that are between the "plain toolsteel blade" and Gendaito.the most basic being mill barstock being machined or ground to sword shaped then selectivly heat treated to produce a hardened edge(real hamon).Usually polished on machinery or hand to a certain level then chemically treated(warm cider vinegar) to etch and enhance the hamon, then contrast polished with chromium dioxide(the modern polishing compoung of the day) or a form of nugui.The rest are combinations of "forged and water quenched(selectively heat treated to produce hamon) but of non traditional material""forged and oil quenched(selectivly heat treated to produce hamon) but of non traditional steel" and mill bar stock (non traditional)that has been formed to sword shape then water quenched.Forging and heat treatment are two different processes,forging is used to physically manipulate structure or shape and size,"heat treatment" is used to change the properties of the material(hard or soft) That said ,Mr Bowen is absolutly correct in his statement "forging produces hada(grain),but never a hamon".Producing the "hamon" is an altogether seperate process(yaki-ire)the applicaton of clay to the blade in certain areas to act as a heat sink and a "mask"to make the sword cool at different rates when quenched producing a hardened edge area.Proper polishing of a sword helps enhance what is physically there.

Greg

[xxlotus8xx]

Well explained Greg.

Thanks.