Help on this one

[historian2]

This was on the sword blade?

[Stephen]

I think its from the rare steel worm hole boring beetle, sorry i really dont have a clue, shoshu scrip? or to cover kizu?

[Nobody]

Which is the tip of the blade, right or left?

[historian2]

The tip of the blade is Left.

Erich

[cabowen]

These poorly done stylized bonji are most often done to hide kizu....

[reinhard]

  cabowen said:

These poorly done stylized bonji are most often done to hide kizu....

 

I can't see any kind of bonji here, not even a stylized one.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

I cant find any bonji that look like this. Stylised? if so, it is so stylised as to be not recogniseable. I too would suspect this was done to hide some sort of kisu. Either that, or its the work of the dreaded iron termite!

 

It may, and this is an outside observation, be a very stylised dragon and ken horimono. The general shape struck me as similar when I turned the picture vertically.

[historian2]

Here is another angle.

[outlier48]

Based on location in the center of the sword (halfway to the kissaki) I agree that this was carved to hide some sort of kisu.

 

A search of the board will show several examples of well placed and well carved horimono and bonji.

 

Charlie Brashear

[Guido]

長梵字 (nagabonji), not really that uncommon.

[sanjuro]

Guido

 

Well, it just goes to show you doesnt it?....... Nagabonji was one of the first things I ruled out and disregarded when I was trying to work this one out. Ah well... back to the books I guess. Maybe a trip to the optometrist first though.....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The blade with naga bonji (both sides) that Guido Shows us:

 

[historian2]

Thanks for the info, now i just need someone who can read Naga-bonji.

Erich

[outlier48]

Erich - just curious at to your thoughts as to the placement of the naga bonji and quality of the carving compared to those posted by Guido. I think there is a definite difference in quality in the carvings, but perhaps that is just in the quality of the photos. As for someone who can read this, perhaps Morita-san?

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Brashear

[reinhard]

From a distance this hori-mono looks like a (naga-) bonji, but which deity is meant here? - Guido's other examples are quite clear and easy to understand in contrast to this one.

 

reinhard

[DirkO]

My guess would be a stylised Fudo Myo-o

 

[Bazza]

  outlier48 said:

Erich - just curious at to your thoughts as to the placement of the naga bonji and quality of the carving compared to those posted by Guido. I think there is a definite difference in quality in the carvings, but perhaps that is just in the quality of the photos. As for someone who can read this, perhaps Morita-san?

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Brashear

Does anyone else think this particular nagabonji has been done with a Dremel tool or somesuch????? Charles raises the question in my mind since the first look - the carving does not look "proper" - perhaps the recent work of an amateur???

 

BaZZa.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  Bazza said:

Does anyone else think this particular nagabonji has been done with a Dremel tool or somesuch?????

 

The head of the snake probably was the Kizu needed to be covered. Depth of the rest is a consequence (IMHO).

[historian2]

The sword is in old polish and would look alot better after a polish,

but the engraving do'es not look as good as the other ones, to say

its there to hide kizu is the automatic response, one could say that

with any sword.. Erich

[sanjuro]

Whilst it is true that horimono and bonji are often carved to hide some sort of kisu, this carving seems to be placed exactly where one would expect it to be placed as described. If we accept that, then one can only question the quality and consistency of the carving itself. We have also failed so far, in determining beyond doubt what the bonji or horimono is supposed to represent. Nagabonji or horimono? I can find no comparable illustration to compare it with, and the nagabonji thus far submitted as a comparison are inconclusive IMHO.

[jason_mazzy]

looks like a polished out horimono to me.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  jason_mazzy said:

looks like a polished out horimono to me.

 

mmmm...Not my feeling, quite the contrary.

 

  Bazza said:

the carving does not look "proper" -

 

Same width and depth everywhere but the head of the Naga, inckuding the ends and beginnings of the "writing".

 

  sanjuro said:

Whilst it is true that horimono and bonji are often carved to hide some sort of kisu, this carving seems to be placed exactly where one would expect it to be placed as described. If we accept that, then one can only question the quality and consistency of the carving itself. We have also failed so far, in determining beyond doubt what the bonji or horimono is supposed to represent. Nagabonji or horimono? I can find no comparable illustration to compare it with, and the nagabonji thus far submitted as a comparison are inconclusive IMHO.

 

Right (even if we've not seen a whole blade pic yet to determine how exact is its position) however... I'm away from both my books and PC so no checking of material allowed, but this could be another point in favour of its spurious nature.

Guido pointed out it is resembling a nagabonji, noone so far is able to find the deity it's intended to be displaied, execution seems sloppy. It can be rised the exception somebody used a (pseudo?) nagabonji to hide more then one blister, linking them with a deisgn that can't be linked to any Deity.

 

Just playing devil's advocate and with all respect to the rest of the blade (that I can't judge) and to the owner which I've nothing against. Pure speculations by an armchair student worth the cyberpaper they're written on.

[outlier48]

  Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini said:

 

Right (even if we've not seen a whole blade pic yet to determine how exact is its position) however... I'm away from both my books and PC so no checking of material allowed, but this could be another point in favour of its spurious nature.

Guido pointed out it is resembling a nagabonji, noone so far is able to find the deity it's intended to be displaied, execution seems sloppy. It can be rised the exception somebody used a (pseudo?) nagabonji to hide more then one blister, linking them with a deisgn that can't be linked to any Deity.

 

Just playing devil's advocate and with all respect to the rest of the blade (that I can't judge) and to the owner which I've nothing against. Pure speculations by an armchair student worth the cyberpaper they're written on.

 

First, thanks to all who are participating in this topic. It is from such speculations and resulting research that we all learn. This process was intended, as I understood it, to be very respectful to Erich and the sword as well as helpful to all of us. (Each new topic line seems to open an interesting new door for me, a newbie). Second, I have taken a bit of time to search for this bonji on the internet, but to no avail. Given that plus the "rounded" quality of this "naga bonji" I remain skeptical but open minded. Hopefully someone will find the key that unlocks this mystery.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Brashear

[reinhard]

  Zanshin said:

My guess would be a stylised Fudo Myo-o

 

Agree. It was most often Fudo Myo-O invocated by bonji on Japanese sword-blades and this might be the case here as well. But what a poor attempt it was.

 

For consideration:

 

reinhard

[Brian]

I think Reinhard's pics demonstrate the point perfectly. No matter what they were going for, it wasn't done very well and not by a professional.

I can see the resemblance, but trying to pin down what it was exactly, isn't going to enhance the quality at all.

 

Brian