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Great samurai picture

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watsonmil Mentor

watsonmil

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Dear Eric,

Any indication of who the photographer was ? It looks to be in the style of Kusakabe Kimbei ( 1880'2 - 1912 ). Funny, ... I just commented on a wonderful photo that Thomas posted under the Tanegashima Hayago thread !

.... Ron Watson

Toryu2020 Grand Master

Toryu2020

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Look closely gentlemen -

 

Guy number one is wearing a pair of sode as kusazuri

Guy two looks most authentic but his helmet is actually for fire fighting

Guy three has on two pair of haidate, the second of which protects his ankles!

Guy four is wearing fire fighting gear and his tsune are on sideways

 

More likely these are townsmen posed by a European photographer, Beato perhaps?

 

-t

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Look closely gentlemen -

 

Guy number one is wearing a pair of sode as kusazuri

Guy two looks most authentic but his helmet is actually for fire fighting

Guy three has on two pair of haidate, the second of which protects his ankles!

Guy four is wearing fire fighting gear and his tsune are on sideways

 

More likely these are townsmen posed by a European photographer, Beato perhaps?

 

-t

That is not firefighting equipment, the forehead protectors #2 and #4 have on are hachi gane with chain neck guards and #4 is wearing a chain jacket or kusari katabira...chain armor was not used for firefighting....fire fighting clothing was made from heavy cloth which could be soaked in water and the helmets worn resembled traditional helmets..here is a picture of a firefighters helmet and cloak, thick cloth or leather hoods were also worn...

ponpon100jp-img450x600-1275617808zo1zwb64964.jpg

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Dear Eric,

Any indication of who the photographer was ? It looks to be in the style of Kusakabe Kimbei ( 1880'2 - 1912 ). Funny, ... I just commented on a wonderful photo that Thomas posted under the Tanegashima Hayago thread !

.... Ron Watson

Ron, no idea of who took it or when...and that is a great photo also on the Tanegashima thread...posed or not those old photos are loaded with great information.
Toryu2020 Grand Master

Toryu2020

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Eric I stand corrected,

Would agree that the hoods are an Edo-period development or would you say widely used pre-1600? Also need to correct my spelling sune not "tsune"...

-t

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Well, I think the truth is somewhere in between. Second from left has his right Sune-ate upside down. One guy is definitely wearing a Hai-date around his ankles, which is unthinkable. (Did they not have enough Sune-ate to go round?) The guy on the right has his right Sune-ate on his left leg. Their Katchu are generally badly-fitting and very mixed stylistically, as if representing very different eras. They have absolutely no idea how to tie their helmets on properly. It has to be a posed shot possibly on fake grass in a studio for the camera. Still a fascinating cameo, and sets the brain juices flowing. :clap:

watsonmil Mentor

watsonmil

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Dear Commentors,

I am pretty certain that the photograph is by Felix Beato. It would have been taken in his studio. Even more certain is that the Samurai in this posed photograph are NOT samurai at all, but people of non samurai class who were paid to wear Armours that Beato had picked up in Junk Shops ( thus the mis-matching, etc. ). At the time Beato or any other European were in Japan ( 1860's - 1880's ), .... but particularily the 1860's and 1870's, ... foreigners were so hated that one went about with ARMED Guard's and even then carried in PLAIN VIEW your own personal revolver. To do otherwise would have been inviting attack by the Samurai class in particular. The fact that these early adventurer photographers didn't get everyone dressed exactly correct is of little wonder. They remind me of the War Correspondents of today, ... risking their lives for the preservation of history. Even today as a tourist, .... try taking a walk around a Flea Market in Abuja, Capital of Nigeria without an armed guard and see how long you last.

..... Ron Watson

IanB Veteran

IanB

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Guy number 3, with the slipped haidate, is wearing quite a respectable folding armour with a chochin kabuto. Wouldn't mind it myself. Reminds me of a visit to Japan where the guy I was travelling with bought a book of old photos from a Dutch collection that included similar posed shots to this. One was of a group holding spears and wearing armour stood outside in a street. One guy in the shot was wearing his katana edge down through his obi which caused my companion and I much amusement. The Japanese we were with gave us the most piteous look and commented that because he was a spearman, it was the correct way to wear the sword (and didn't say so but suggested by his look that even toddlers in Japan knew that). He explanation was that worn the normal way, the tsuka was in the way when thrusting with the yari at waist level. Makes sense but I don't really know if he was correct.

Ian Bottomley

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Dear Eric,

Any indication of who the photographer was ? It looks to be in the style of Kusakabe Kimbei ( 1880'2 - 1912 ). Funny, ... I just commented on a wonderful photo that Thomas posted under the Tanegashima Hayago thread !

.... Ron Watson

I found this info..Samurai with bow and arrow, helmets, swords, spears and coats of mail. Photo from series of 42 hand coloured albumine prints at Spaarnestad Photo by Felice Beato, Kusakabe Kimbei or Raimund baron von Stillfried. Japan, around 1880. From the National Archive of the Netherlands..http://www.flickr.com/photos/29998366@N02/3774080165/
estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Eric I stand corrected,

Would agree that the hoods are an Edo-period development or would you say widely used pre-1600? Also need to correct my spelling sune not "tsune"...

-t

Thomas, unfortunately there is not much information available that I know of that helps date chain armor and non traditional armor in general, it is generally accepted that the portable type, folding types and chain armor are Edo period mostly from what I have read but its a vastly under researched area. This picture while staged is the only one I have ever seen with this type of armor actually being worn at all. Those shoulder armors "sode" being worn on the one guys waist are rather strange seeing that on the other armors the sode are in the right places? The #3 guy is wearing as Ian pointed out a very interesting armor...if you look closely you will see that it is made up of large "kikko" armored plates....hexagon iron or hardened leather...the chest armor "dou" and the thigh armor "haidate" are matching ( he really is low riding those around his feet!!) and this is a very rare type of armor to see being worn also along with the collapsible helmet "chochin kabuto" Pictures of samurai wearing chain armor are very rare probably due the traditional armor being much more interesting looking and colorful.
Curgan Community Regular

Curgan

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My thanks for the interesting picture and the excellent (and huge) collection.

 

PS Don't the *samurai* at the picture look pityfull or is it my idea?

bluelake Enthusiast

bluelake

Posted
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For a lot of great old photos that will eat your time up for about the next day and a half, take a look here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/sets/
Thomas, a really great collection that you posted..is that your site? Everyone should take a look as I dont know of a place were you can see more old Japanese photos.

 

No, not mine; it belongs to a fellow who lives on Okinawa--I found it some time ago while looking for old Korean pics (that is where I found the tigerhunter pic).

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Speaking of gay samurai - what does this guy think he is doing :freak:

 

[attachment=0]4192350274_ce64622319.jpg[/attachment]

He wears his armor better than the Japanese guys!
Baka Gaijin Grand Master

Baka Gaijin

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Thanks to Moriyama san for the Photo link.

 

The westerner is posing against a backdrop, the foreground greenery appears to be dressing.

Whether he is outside in a three sided tent or in a Northlit "Rooflight" studio with natural light is difficult to discern, certainly the light is high sitter's left, camera right and wrapping aound the figure with a soft back shadow.

 

The armour he is wearing is snug around the midriff and for a man six to eight inches smaller I'd guess, although seems well set on the sitter by someone aquainted with armour..

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

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