The first shots of a window on a steelwooled blade from poli

[jason_mazzy]

Here is what i got today:

 

pre window:

 

 

window:

 

 

This is the foundation. excited to see the finish work.

[Amon]

Hi Jason!

 

Nice progress!

Seems far more complete than foundation?

Any details about the blade?

 

Kind regards,

[outlier48]

Hi Jason - Nice! I think many of us are looking forward to the next pics. Would you mind telling us who is polishing this sword?

 

Charlie Brashear

[jason_mazzy]

bought as ebay junked up scrubbed down sword from Japan. seemed very healthy tho all fittings were rusty, so it shows me how neglected this blade was. it had been completely steelwooled, but was very healthy, and thick still. so far no deficiancies or hada ware, so I ave my fingers crossed. $250 in koshirae, lets hope I bought a winning lotto ticket!

[watsonmil]

Dear Jason,

I cannot make out the boshi. Is it present ? One thing about a Hadori Polish, ... if one does not exist, ... the polisher can always paint one in ! ..... Ron Watson

[Stephen]

I have to drop in on this, I'm not sure if your using a trained togi, a foundation should not look like this, the hamon looks cosmetic, Jason, seems your trying to get more done than your experience allows with swords. If your thinking your going to hit the lotto on a Ebay sword, check the odds on winning the power ball or mega millions.

[jason_mazzy]

I'm sorry I misunderstood the polisher, I just got on phone with him. The window is almost complete polish. Kissaki is not finished. I will wait for next set of pictures, and set them up.

[Tsugio Kawakami]

It's pretty...but I can't see any hataraki. Is there any, or are the pictures and polish just not showing it?

[jason_mazzy]

Heres part of the emil message sent with these pics:

 

Here's some shots of todays window work, This blade is flooded with itame grainwork. Temper is midare with lots of nie.

[Amon]

A bit what I mention before!

 

The window area looks almost complete with both

Migaki and Hadori.

 

Why so much work for a window and why shaping Kissaki now?

 

Kind regards,

[cabowen]

Jason-

 

Terminology may be confusing the issue here..

 

Normally, when a "window" is opened in a blade, the polisher simply does a quick stoning of a small, maybe 4", area of the blade, usually they only use a few different grits. The idea is to get a rough idea of the jitetsu and hamon so that a decision to fully polish the blade can be made. When nothing is visible and it appears the blade has been abused, it is a good idea to do this to see if the blade is worthy of restoration.

 

it appears that whoever is working on this blade has in fact attempted to fully polish, complete with hadori (the white frosting over the hamon) and migaki (mirror-like polish on the shinogi-ji), the tip of the blade. This is not what professional polishers do when "opening a window".

 

A foundation polish is simply the groundwork using the first few stones to remove rust, waves in the surface, to set the lines and to otherwise correct the shape of the blade.

[Jean]

Right Chris, it looks like a full hadori finish. In this case don't bother to look for hataraki. Too difficult to catch unless haveing the blade in hand. If I have time, one day I'll show you the pictures of a tanto of mine (hadori) and its oshigata .....

[jason_mazzy]

Right Chris, it looks like a full hadori finish. In this case don't bother to look for hataraki. Too difficult to catch unless haveing the blade in hand. If I have time, one day I'll show you the pictures of a tanto of mine (hadori) and its oshigata .....

 

 

What finish would be more appropriat do you think to showcase the blade?

 

 

edit: added ? mark in place of period.

[Jean]

Jason,

 

There are pros and cons on hadori vs Sashikomi polish. The only thing I can say is that Hadori polish is very difficult to picture if one wants to capture hataraki.

 

I like hadori (slight) on ito suguha. I have all my blades in hadori but there are two, both juyo level, I should have prefered in sashikomi polish but it is not the fashion and there won't be polished again because it would remove steel which is a sin on Nanbokucho Nihonto.

[cabowen]

Right Chris, it looks like a full hadori finish. In this case don't bother to look for hataraki. Too difficult to catch unless haveing the blade in hand. If I have time, one day I'll show you the pictures of a tanto of mine (hadori) and its oshigata .....

 

 

What finish would be more appropriat do you think to showcase the blade?

 

 

edit: added ? mark in place of period.

 

 

Neither if it isn't done correctly.....

 

Fewer blades are done in sashi-komi these days as kesho has become more popular. A lot of people knock kesho because all they have seen are poorly done examples. When done poorly, it makes seeing the activity in the blade difficult. When done correctly, the ji is clear and visible and, when viewed correctly, the hataraki are clear as well.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Right Chris, it looks like a full hadori finish. In this case don't bother to look for hataraki. Too difficult to catch unless haveing the blade in hand. If I have time, one day I'll show you the pictures of a tanto of mine (hadori) and its oshigata .....

 

I think you are right on Jean. Perhaps the prudent thing is to not judge the polish strictly on these pictures alone.

[cabowen]

There is good hadori and not so good. There is well presented ji-tetsu and not so....

 

Here is an example of well done hadori:

 

 

Notice how it is semi-transparent.

 

Also notice how the ji tetsu is clear, not cloudy and hard like a mirror. It looks like the steel was vivisectioned.

[watsonmil]

Dear ALL,

My definition ( after having examined many hundreds of blades ) of the Hadori verses Sashikomi polish question is this : Tradition was Sashikomi, .... Politics was Hadori. Modern connisseurs seem to prefer hadori, .... the Samurai prefered the more subtle sashikomi ( Oh I already know it was not until the end of the samurai era that hadori appeared, ... but show me a case of the Samurai wanting to be flashy rather than reserved and I'll grant you a point ). Like some men prefer painted hookers, ... some prefer natural beauty. It is all a matter of personal taste. Some men revel in Politics, ... personally I find Politicians obscene. Some men prefer to be politically correct and be followers, ... I prefer freedom of expression over what's currently in style. I guess I've made it clear where my preferences lay, .... it is simply personal taste, ... and an adherence to tradition with me.

........ Ron Watson

[cabowen]

Dear ALL,

My definition ( after having examined many hundreds of blades ) of the Hadori verses Sashikomi polish question is this : Tradition was Sashikomi, .... Politics was Hadori.

 

Sashikomi is indeed considered traditional though from what polishers have told me, hadori is more an "art" polish, rather than a practical or functional polish. It has long been said that certain higher ups in the sword community preferred the "art" polish and set the trend. Some say it is just the next step in the evolution of the craft.

 

One could make the case that the earliest polishes were most likely very rudimentary and that what is now thought of as traditional sashikomi is actually a relatively new development and not traditional at all....

 

 

Modern connisseurs seem to prefer hadori, .... the Samurai prefered the more subtle sashikomi ( Oh I already know it was not until the end of the samurai era that hadori appeared, ... but show me a case of the Samurai wanting to be flashy rather than reserved and I'll grant you a point ).

 

No doubt there were samurai who liked the shibui but there must have been plenty who liked flash or there wouldn't be anything but suguha and tosho tsuba....

 

The Osaka area has always been known for its affinity for hade (flashy)....Just look at the works of Osaka shinto for proof....

 

 

 

It is all a matter of personal taste.

........ Ron Watson

 

Absolutely.

 

However, I think this debate was focused more on quality rather than style....

[moss]

Chris ,

 

Thanks for posting a nice shot of hadori polish.

 

Cheers Moss

[Curran]

Jason,

 

It looks like you have pulled a nice sword out of the woodwork. The jigane looks tight.

 

This may turn into another "polish" debate by the others, because of the evidence in how it is being done from the photos. PS. I can't identify the polisher by the photo reflection, but maybe someone else will. Your choice and theirs to sit on the ID, as it really is mostly your business.

If you know or have a clue to the ID of the sword, please tell us. Going off the little geometry I can see and what I can of the metal, I'm going to take a lean that it is shinto or shinshinto. Photo of the nakago might help. Have no clue as to the hamon, but this might be a sword that would benefit from Hadori though I definitely fall into the sashikomi camp. Very hard to say, not being able to see the hamon at all.

 

Don't know. Initial results got me curious. March to your own drum on this one, but listen to the voices here and maybe something will stick for future use.

[Mark Green]

Wow, a full polish window, with burnishing and all. Nice looking hada.

 

I personaly like sashikomi, But i'm with Chris, when hadori is done well, it can be very wonderful to behold.

I do feel though, that even in Japan, with the pro polishers, good hadori can be hard to find. I think it likely takes a knack.

Some people have it, many don't. But put it on your sword none the less.

Mark G

Here is one by a board member with the knack

[loui]

Like Chris said opening a window is usually about a 4-5 inch section, the polisher can open it in several places, ie, kissaki, or any place along the blade that he feels might be a questionable area (something that might pose a problem like loss of temper), or for a healthy blade just about any place. The term is Madoake - which I think literally means "open window" - like opening a window of a house to see what is inside. The window could be in sashikomi or keisho depending on how the polisher would like to see the finished product.

 

What stumps me a little here and in some other threads is the method of polishing, it isn't traditional, it incorporates some artificial means of "polishing" the ji area and what may be an acid procedure for the hadori. The pure white area is unnatural and does not produce the proper effect - it is not traditional or really very acceptable. Keisho is basically to make pretty - like make up, it is not supposed to be cover up. A black and white sword to a new collector might seem flashy and impressive, but given time and knowledge one will learn that swords are not just "black and white".

 

I usually don't like to critique any polishing but this "process" can be harmful, I just received a blade that had the very same treatment and some chemical was seeping out of the hada and corroding the blade, so I had to re-polish it. And to boot the "white wash" covered up a hagire that would have been seen with a proper polish. Please don't allow chemicals to be used on swords.

 

Regards,

[jason_mazzy]

no chemical is used on this. just stones.

[sanjuro]

Strange...... I was under the impression that a hadori polish was a partially chemical process.

Nugui etc?

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would care to adjudicate?

[jason_mazzy]

I know when I spoke to him, I asked about that and the new synthetic polishes available. He said no way it is 100% traditional or nothing at all. So if there is some traditional used chemical that I am unaware of, then I missed it when speaking to him. That is of course possible.

[loui]

The process of hadori is accomplished with finger stones, a mixture of oil and kanahada and/or other ingredients are used before the fingerstone work is done, the kanahada darkens the ji and give the whitish work contrast. It may be "chemical" but fairly inert as it is mainly oil and kanada. Sashikomi is different and used Jitekko and oil (and maybe some other ingredients , the effect is not as drastic and has s different effect on the steel, chemical in nature but fairly inert ie, not caustic or acid in nature.

 

Some processes on hybrid polishes use mild acids for etching I believe, I do not know much about hybrid polishing and don't care to know as I don't believe the process crosses over to genuine Nihonto - IMHO.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[cabowen]

I think it would amaze people to know how prevalent the use of acid is in modern polishing....I would bet that most togi in Japan are using it....a dirty little secret.

[moss]

Hello all,

 

Nice thread and good to see some real knowledge being shared

Louis ,Chris,Keith Amazing what is to be learnt here.

 

Cheers

 

Moss

[loui]

I think it would amaze people to know how prevalent the use of acid is in modern polishing....I would bet that most togi in Japan are using it....a dirty little secret.

 

No doubt about it, I won't go into the details on that but I prefer old school honest polishing - drilled into my head a few years ago. I do realize there is a place for it with modern swords - the hardness of the steel is much different than blades of old, my stones would take a beating and I love them too much for that. Is it wrong to say good night to a 4 pound koma nagura-do before bed?????