"Tan" stamp

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, tim89 said:

I have a Kanetsune.

Tim,

Is there at Tan stamp above the mei?

 

Also, can we get a close-up of that stamp at the bottom?

[tim89]

Bruce,

 

No stamp. It's also about 13.9 cm ubuha. 

Timothy N.

[tim89]

Bruce,

I will also add that I did buy this while I lived in Japan. It's in a civilian koshirae and has markings that indicate it's was used for tameshigiri cutting (tatami). 

When in Japan it had a registration card as well.

Timothy N.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sorry Tim, but I don't recognize that mark.  Reminds me of the dots we see sometimes on the nakago jiri.  A mystery.

[tim89]

Bruce, 

I'm sure it's been thought of, have you been able to correlate the quality with the Dots? 

I have a copy of the torokusho somewhere at home. I'll try and find it and post that too. 

I'll try getting in touch with my sensei in Japan but it will take time. His father was an imperial guard so he might know. I've been curious about those markings as well.

 

Timothy N.

[tim89]

 

Timothy N.

[Bruce Pennington]

Timothy,

I don't read Japanese, so maybe you can help us with this post?  Otherwise, we'll wait for @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN @SteveM.

 

Photo righted and enhanced a bit

[Bugyotsuji]

濃州住人兼常鍛之

無し

 

Nō Shū Jū Nin Kanetsune kitae kore

(Reverse) Nashi (nothing)

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah.  I thought it might be something that would shed some light on the tan stamp.

[Bugyotsuji]

Kitau, kitaeru are the same 鍛 as Tan.

It seems many of the signatures end in 鍛之 "forged by Kane-somebody", and the stamp is an added guarantee of reliability & authenticity. So Bruce would like to know here which particular forge in Mino/Seki added this hot stamp, right?

[Bruce Pennington]

30 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Kitau, kitaeru are the same 鍛 as Tan.

It seems many of the signatures end in 鍛之 "forged by Kane-somebody", and the stamp is an added guarantee of reliability & authenticity. So Bruce would like to know here which particular forge in Mino/Seki added this hot stamp, right?

If that is known, then sure! We are just trying to understand the significance of the stamp. Even Richard Fuller, in his book, understands what the kanji says but no one understands why it is there. Does it mean the blade is made in a traditional manner? Is it a quality stamp by a particular forge??Just trying to figure out why it is on some blades.

[Kiipu]

I found it interesting that, as the Honorable Bruce stated above, it has only been found on blades forged in Gifu Prefecture.  All that can be done is to locate more examples and see how many swordsmiths used this particular stamp and when.  The when part is rather silent though.

 

In my opinion, I see one of two possibilities.  The 1st is that it was used by a training forge or a regular forge.  The 2nd is that it was an association stamp just like the Shō 昭 and large Seki 関.  However, I searched through all of Mal's monographs on Gifu Prefecture and did not find one example of the 鍛 stamp.  I would think that he would have at least included one if it was found.

 

On my end, I will keep my eyes open for more examples and post links to them.

[Kiipu]

I found the following via a quick Internet search engine.  Did not look to carefully though.

 

Kaneaki

KANEAKI—2ND SEAT -WW2 Japanese Army Officer Samurai Sword/Old Gendaito

 

Kaneshige via text only?

Lot 2437: Two Signed Japanese Swords

 

Kiyonobu

Kiyonobu Gendaito in Shin-gunto Mounts

[Kiipu]

TAN/KITAU STAMP

This stamp means forged or folded.  Seems to be used mainly (?only) in Seki.  Possibly it means a hand-made forged blade that is not of fully traditional manufacture (e.g possibly mill steel, or a variation of oil quenching).

 

Omote-mei

Two example only, neither are dated.  This may mean they are pre-1942.

 

Cox, Malcolm E. “A Survey of Wartime Blade Stamps.” JSSUS Newsletter Vol. 26 No. 3 (May-June 1994): pages 2–10.

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

TAN/KITAU STAMP

This stamp means forged or folded.  Seems to be used mainly (?only) in Seki.  Possibly it means a hand-made forged blade that is not of fully traditional manufacture (e.g possibly mill steel, or a variation of oil quenching).

 

Omote-mei

Two example only, neither are dated.  This may mean they are pre-1942.

 

Cox, Malcolm E. “A Survey of Wartime Blade Stamps.” JSSUS Newsletter Vol. 26 No. 3 (May-June 1994): pages 2–10.

 

@Bruce Pennington

I suspect that the "鍛" mark could represent the traditional hand-forged blade"本鍛練刀". 

 

http://ohmura-study.net/211.html

 

「株式会社濃州日本刀鍛錬所」 (清見町)が設立され、専属刀匠を置き、考案の特殊坩堝鋼、厳選した安来鋼を材料として、古式鍛錬の技法を遺憾なく発揮して優秀軍刀を鍛造し、厳密な検査の上、一つ一つに責任保証を付け、全国及び満洲.
 "Noshū Nihon Token Kōjō Co., Ltd." (Kiyomicho) was established, placing exclusive swordsmiths and utilizing specially devised crucible steel and carefully selected Anshin steel as materials to fully demonstrate the ancient forging techniques, forging excellent military swords. After rigorous inspection, each sword was guaranteed with a certificate of responsibility, and the company accepted orders directly from trading shops and customers across the country, as well as in Manchuria and China. 

 

https://www.touken-world.jp/tips/21493/

 

 

  1941年（昭和16年）には太平洋戦争が勃発。関の刀剣産業は再び盛んになりました。このころ作られた軍事用の刀剣は、古くからの日本刀とは区別して「昭和刀」と称されます。昭和刀は戦争が進むにつれ、粗悪品が出回るようになりました。
  そこで関市の刀剣業者は製品のクオリティを保証するため、新しく制作された刀剣を関刃物工業組合で検査し、基準をクリアした物に証印を打つことに。近代的な製造システムによって価格を抑えられている上に、こうした品質保証制度が整えられた関市の刀剣は人気を集め、国内の市場シェアを伸ばしていったのです。
  終戦直前の1944年（昭和19年）には、関の刀鍛冶は49人、昭和刀鍛冶200人、研師3,000人であったと記録されています。
  In 1941 (Showa 16), the Pacific War broke out, and the Seki sword industry once again flourished. The military swords produced during this time were distinguished from the traditional Japanese swords and were referred to as "Showa swords." As the war progressed, the quality of Showa swords began to deteriorate, with many inferior products being circulated.

  To guarantee the quality of their products, Seki's sword manufacturers began to inspect newly made swords at the Seki Cutlery Industrial Association, stamping a seal of approval on those that met the standards. With prices kept low by modern manufacturing systems and the establishment of such a quality assurance system, Seki's swords gained popularity and expanded their domestic market share.

  Records from 1944 (Showa 19), just before the end of the war, indicate that there were 49 traditional swordsmiths, 200 Showa swordsmiths, and 3,000 polishers in Seki.

 

[tim89]

On 5/25/2024 at 5:14 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Timothy,

I don't read Japanese, so maybe you can help us with this post?  Otherwise, we'll wait for @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN @SteveM.

 

Photo righted and enhanced a bit

Bruce,

Hey sorry I didn't give any information other than the torokusho. I'm usually pressed on time these days. Have twin 2yr old sons that have me running all over the house. 

Noshu ju nin kanetsune kitau kore 

The other side is just the rules describing the need to keep the torokusho with the blade at all times.  I've been under the impression that it is traditional forge but more than likely oil quenched, which im 100% alright with if it is.  This is the only blade I have from that time period. Everything else I have is 1980s>present or  <1800s.

Anyways, some more pictures. I played around with different lighting.

 

Although I've studied Batto for many years I'm still trying to become more proficient with the smiths and the collector side of things so that I may appreciate and deepen my understanding of Nihonto even further. 

 

Timothy N. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

48 minutes ago, tim89 said:

  I've been under the impression that it is traditional forge but more than likely oil quenched, which im 100% alright with if it is. 

Timothy,

Good pics!  Someone who knows gendaito/nihonto should be able to help you, like @PNSSHOGUN

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I suspect that the "鍛" mark could represent the traditional hand-forged blade"本鍛練刀"

That seems to be the growing consensus.  2 of the blades Thomas just posted were being sold by St Croix blades and Japaneseswords.com and both dealers stated the blades were gendaito, showing pictures.

[Bruce Pennington]

The Kaneaki pics, from St. Croix blades: (note the 2 dots on the un-dated side.  I have one other Kaneaki on file with 2 dots)

[Bruce Pennington]

The Kiyonobu from Japanesesword.com

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

To guarantee the quality of their products, Seki's sword manufacturers began to inspect newly made swords at the Seki Cutlery Industrial Association, stamping a seal of approval on those that met the standards.

The only actual document we have stating which stamp was being used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers (Industrial) Association is the magazine article quoted by Ohmura on his page - Japan Syōwa-tō of Seki (ohmura-study.net).  It was published in 1940 and states the Association used the Showa stamp:

 

"Akira" engraved on cherry blossoms
Conventionally, the memoir of Technical Major Keiyi Oto, the head of the Seki Branch of the Nagoya Army Arsenal, "Japan Sword",
and according to the "Seki History" materials, the switching time between the "Seki" and "Sakura ni Akira" inspection stamps was estimated to be around the end of Showa 17, but " Based on the appearance of a sword blade with an inspection inscription, a re-investigation was conducted.
With the cooperation of Seiji Ido, chairman of the "Sekiden Japan Sword Forging Technology Preservation Association", in Showa 15, the "Katato Seki" magazine published by Sekimachi at that time The blade, which has passed the strict inspection of the Seki Cutlery Industry Association, is stamped with the inscription "Sakura Hana ni Shoji", and has been well received as a practical sword that is invincible under the heavens

This makes it highly likely that a new inspection stamp was used in Showa 14.
The documents of the "Seki Cutlery Industry Association" of the parties concerned have not yet been found.
The reason for the change in the inscription and the official timing of the change are still unknown."

 

 

He also has a page (I cannot find it now) where he cites a survey done of the inspected blades and it notes that the number did not include nihonto as "they were not inspected."

 

We don't have any documentation proving who was using the large Seki stamp and why it replaced the Showa stamp.  Ohmura discusses it from an interview with someone from the war, but his recollection of events has it reversed, stating the large Seki was first and the Showa replaced it.  Observed blades prove it was the opposite (along with the cited magazine article).

 

So, the Showa and large Seki stamps were being used on blades that passed inspection (likely showato).  

 

Showa stamp - 1935 through 1942 (3 '45 blades found with the stamp); really kicking in at 1940 (319 observed)

Seki stamp - seen 1940 - 1945, but kicking in in 1942 (380 observed)

Tan stamp - 1940 -1942 (22 observed)

 

I was hoping to see that the smiths with the Tan stamp would be few and all from a particular forge, making the stamp a marketing image, like Piers suggested, for that forge.  But we have 11 smiths now with the stamp.  While all of them are from Gifu, it seems unlikely they all worked for the same forge (unless @mecox can tell us otherwise!).  COULD the stamp have been used by the Association on gendaito?  It is a possibility.  First, we would need to study as many of these blades as possible to see if they were gendaito.  If so, then we still wouldn't know WHO was using it, but the Assoc. would be a possible suspect, if all these smiths had no connection.

 

Tan

1940, Feb	Kaneaki (pre RJT) – Gifu	Bangbangsan, NMB
1941, Aug	Kanetsune – Gifu	Yahoo Auction
1942	Sadatsugu – Gifu	Hxv, NMB
1942, Jan	Kanetada – Gifu	David Price, NMB
ND TEXT ONLY NO PHOTOS	Amahide – Gifu	Worthpoint.ebay
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	Cillo, pg 37
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	Military trader, W-A
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	G584, NMB
ND TEXT ONLY NO PHOTOS	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	SwordsofJapan.ebay
ND	Kaneaki (RJT) – Gifu	St Croix Blades 2 dots
ND	Kanekuni – Gifu	Zook, NMB, kaigunto
ND	Kanekuni, Ogawa – Gifu	F & G, Swordmiths, pg 78
ND	Kanenaga, Amichi 包永 – Gifu	Waljamanda, NMB
ND TEXT ONLY NO PHOTO	Kaneshige 兼重 (RJT) – Gifu	RIA auction
ND	Kanesumi, Sato (RJT) – Gifu	Sksguide, NMB
ND	Kanetoshi – Gifu	Slough, pg 122
ND	Kanetoshi – Gifu	GregD, NMB
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Cillo, pg 85
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Beater, NMB
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Aukshunshuset.com
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Nic, NMB
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Worthpoint.ebay
ND	Kiyonobu, Nagamura – Gifu	Japanesesword.com

[Bruce Pennington]

Going through these slowly.  Please join in and give me your thoughts Nihonto guys!

 

Sadatsugu, 1942, posted by @hxv.  Has obvious hada, but to my untrained eye, seems to have black spots in the hamon.  Does this mean oil quenched? Only 2 photos I have of the blade:

[dwmc]

I don't think I've ever seen an oil quenched in a Choji type hamon. I'm probably 100% mistaken but seems as though (of course without researching the matter) most oil quenched hamons  appear to be Gunome pattern?

[Brian]

Don't see much sign of oil here. Lots of activity and nie lean away from oil quench. Can you add an arrow to the black areas you are referring to? Thanks.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, dwmc said:

I don't think I've ever seen an oil quenched in a Choji type hamon

 

12 hours ago, Brian said:

Don't see much sign of oil here.

Ok, thanks guys.  Brian, no need in my pointing.  This is an area I'm completely ignorant about, which is why I am really counting on you guys who know this stuff.

 

So, one down, a few to go.

 

This was poste by @Nic in 2010, on THIS THREAD.  It's all he posted, and he hasn't been here since then, so it might not be enough for a valued judgement, but here goes:

 

An undated Kiyonobu

 

And here's another undated Kiyonubo found at Japanesesword.com.  Might be a better prospect for evaluation:

 

 

At the risk of overload, one found on Aukshunshuset.com.  Undated Kiyonobu