What do you make of this?

[Ford Hallam]

As a rule I avoid ebay for fear of hurting my eyes but this morning, over my customary cuppa, I had a little poke around.

 

I found this, have a good look if you've time and inclination and I'd be interested to hear what others may think about the possible authenticity, or otherwise, of this tsuba. I've not cleared this discussion, on an ebay item still on sale, so if this is deemed inappropriate please delete this as necessary.

 

Of course, the act of me drawing attention to this piece already reveals my own view but I'd like to see what others may perceive also.

 

My feelings are that it may be time to simply start "naming and shaming" those items that are suspect.

 

regards,

 

ford

[Ford Hallam]

Another one form the same seller. This one far more obvious.

 

...and a third.

 

Seeing a pattern yet? :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Just makes me angry. They don't even bother to cloud the issue. Just outright lies...

[Marius]

As a rule I avoid ebay for fear of hurting my eyes but this morning, over my customary cuppa, I had a little poke around.

 

I found this, have a good look if you've time and inclination and I'd be interested to hear what others may think about the possible authenticity, or otherwise, of this tsuba. I've not cleared this discussion, on an ebay item still on sale, so if this is deemed inappropriate please delete this as necessary.

 

Of course, the act of me drawing attention to this piece already reveals my own view but I'd like to see what others may perceive also.

 

My feelings are that it may be time to simply start "naming and shaming" those items that are suspect.

 

Ford,

 

thanks for pointing these out. While the second and the third seem to be rather obvious (they are sooooo bad), the first one, the "early Echizen Kinai" is not so obvious. All three are cast metal tsuba IMHO, but the first one is the best and it might fool people like myself. Do you think they are modern fakes, or Meiji "tourist" items?

[ottou812]

What about this from the same seller?

[Stephen]

i can see the brass tanto as a copy, not the others, sure glad i dont collect such

[estcrh]

As a rule I avoid ebay for fear of hurting my eyes but this morning, over my customary cuppa, I had a little poke around.

 

I found this, have a good look if you've time and inclination and I'd be interested to hear what others may think about the possible authenticity, or otherwise, of this tsuba. I've not cleared this discussion, on an ebay item still on sale, so if this is deemed inappropriate please delete this as necessary.

 

Of course, the act of me drawing attention to this piece already reveals my own view but I'd like to see what others may perceive also.

 

My feelings are that it may be time to simply start "naming and shaming" those items that are suspect.

 

regards,

 

ford

Ford, I have always thought that Ebay is a good learning tool...either for good or bad items....pointing out items that might fool someone and showing people what to watch out for should not be seen a inappropriate. I for one do not know enough about this subject and appreciate being able to learn what to watch out for. What I do not see is any sign of age or wear on these items. Is there anything you are seeing that would be a warning sign for someone?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Mariuszk,

 

yes, the first one is quite deceptive, this was why I thought it worth pointing out. It's a very good steel casting which in my opinion makes it no older hen 30 or so years. I believe these modern steel cast copies of originals to be a fairly new development that has come about because of the much wider and less well informed ( sorry) potential market that now exists.

 

This particular tsuba is a very good example of what an "as cast" surface looks like. The moment the maker does any further work to tidy it up he'll have the problem of creating a convincing surface. The give away clues will inevitably be in the surface of the metal.

What could be quite convincing is the rust on this piece but in reality it only takes a couple of months of "careful neglect" to develop that sort of look. Then consider that glossy grey/black surface...that's been nicely polished up with fine steel wool or a fine wire brush. It looks far too "hard".

 

 

I've taken the liberty of posting this example here as a reference. Brian, if you're unhappy about me lifting "evidence" from ebay for use here I'll happily store it on my of forum instead though. I'm planning a "fakes" hall of shame

 

Now compare the previous, cast example, with this fine genuine, hand carved steel piece. I collected this image for my own reference use a while ago so don't know where I got it from. If you're the vendor I hope this use is ok with you. If not please let me know and I'll remove it.

 

Note the relative crispness of this workmanship in this example compared to the cast piece. There is some surface encrustation with rust growth on the genuine piece but compare the subtle difference in general quality compared to the "instant rust" on the fake. The most subtle part of the skin surface of the genuine work is the evidence, to my eyes, of the gentle finishing of the steel surface. This would involve both scraping to refine the shape, polishing with slate type stone (nagura and uchigomori ) as well as some very light hammer and planish punch work. If you look very carefully you may catch a glimpse, here and there, of tiny punch marks. This is all part of the traditional process of finishing carved steel. Then the patina is developed, not to hide the finished ground but to enhance it with colour and depth but still the essential workmanship can be seen in the skin.

 

 

Hello James.

 

The kozuka is, imo, a perfectly honest piece of work. Probably late Edo. Copper is very difficult to cast because it absorbs up to 100% it weight in oxygen if it get the chance. This makes the metal very porous and polishing and patinating cast copper can also be a real nightmare. The finish of this kozuka tells me it was polished in a traditional way, you can actually see grain structure in the copper colour. This is very good. The workmanship isn't particularly fine but it's genuine. The mei, on the other-hand, is "wildly hopeful" imo

 

Hi Eric,

 

assessing the genuineness of tsuba like this is quite difficult to write about but I'm hoping that, if I'm allowed , I might run an ongoing series here to try and help build up a database of the different types of fake and along the way try to describe why I judge them as such. I think it probably best, for now, to concentrate on picking out only the modern fakes. Antique ones were made in the traditional ways and will require a more academic approach whereas with the modern stuff I'll merely be apply my understanding of the differences between traditional versus modern manufacturing technologies.

 

regards,

 

fh

[SwordGuyJoe]

Ford,

Thank you for posting this. You have helped reaffirm that I should not expand my collection to tosogu. Even the bad ones look alright to me.

 

I'll think I'll stay a SwordGuy, at least I have a good eye for blades...

[Marius]

Ford,

Thank you for posting this. You have helped reaffirm that I should not expand my collection to tosogu. Even the bad ones look alright to me.

 

I'll think I'll stay a SwordGuy, at least I have a good eye for blades...

 

Joe, maybe it is time to look into your sword collection?

 

Ford,

 

I I think the idea to post modern fakes here is brilliant. What better source than eBay?

 

On the other hand, you have made me nervously browse through my collection :lol:

 

One question: how to determine if a tsuba is genuine or a fake for tsuba which have been designed not to be particularly crisp? Let me shwo you one of these (sorry for the quality of the pic, I can take a few closeups if you want...

[Ford Hallam]

Mariusz,

 

as you point out, these types of tsuba, where the finish is designed to look somewhat grainy, are some of the most difficult to asses, especially from photographs. It's not very helpful either, when someone just tells you it comes with experience so I'll give it a go.

 

First thing that strikes me about your piece is that although the surface has a coarseness about it is is in fact quite a subtle finish. It's almost stone like and appears to show a degree of gentle control in the way the surface has been worked. If you look around the edges of the corolla where the stem attaches to the eggplants they appear to be quite neatly defined and the edges are reasonably smooth but not over polished or burnished. If this was a casting I'd be looking for evidence of graininess in those indents. I'd want to examine the inside edges of the cut outs too. These are areas that are almost impossible to work with a hammer and punch in the same way as the flat surfaces are. In genuine work you'll generally find these inner surfaces slightly smoother than the outer faces. The nakago ana is always a very good area to examine very closely because it often hasn't been worked as much as the carved areas so the true nature of the metal is sometimes more apparent there, especially the inner walls of the nakago-ana itself.

 

I don't know if what I've written makes any sense as you examine the piece in hand and try to apply what I've describe...you'll have to let me know

 

regards,

fh

[Marius]

 

I don't know if what I've written makes any sense as you examine the piece in hand and try to apply what I've describe...you'll have to let me know

 

 

Ford, it does :-) I must admit that I had no doubt about my hyoutan sukashi tsuba being genuine - I have bought it from Skip Holbrook's collection offered here by Grey Doffin. However, your remarks on the finish made me look at it very carefully once again - always a valueable experience BTW, the hitsu ana is a later addition, it seems. It does interfere with the design. And the openings (except for the hitsu ana) are rounded, which reminds me of Higo style tsuba.

 

In some openings I see evidence of folding. The nakago ana is smooth inside, and its lower bottom has been possibly hit with a small hammer when fitting a blade - as a result a small section of it is protruding slightly - a very crisp fold. Nothing of that sort would ever happen with cast iron. The seppa dai has the same surface finish as the rest. It is slightly concave. Cast tsuba have invariably very dull-looking seppa-dai - sometimes this is the first thing that jumps into your eyes.

 

Having said this, and being an armchair expert, I would have bought the first of the cast tsuba as genuine. That is why it is so important to discuss fakes.

 

Thanks again

[Gabriel L]

It disturbs me how good the first one looks. Seems to me that there is zero possibility of a beginner being able to tell it's fake. Hell, iron tsuba may not be my strongest subject, but I can usually tell the difference—I would not have cried foul on that example, and even after being told its fake the most I can see is a harsh quality to the texture.

[cspage]

One thing that struck me in the first example is the uniformity of the texture throughout the entire tsuba. Also the uniformity of the distribution of the rustiness. While not totally secure in using "uniformity" as a general measuring guide, there's seems to be something fishy about such uniformity where one might expect some variations. I count it just as one check point to consider in evaluating fake or real, not a "make it or break it" feature. And in many cases, I'm sure, uniformity would be expected.

 

Colin

[estcrh]

Mariusz,

 

as you point out, these types of tsuba, where the finish is designed to look somewhat grainy, are some of the most difficult to asses, especially from photographs. It's not very helpful either, when someone just tells you it comes with experience so I'll give it a go.

 

First thing that strikes me about your piece is that although the surface has a coarseness about it is is in fact quite a subtle finish. It's almost stone like and appears to show a degree of gentle control in the way the surface has been worked. If you look around the edges of the corolla where the stem attaches to the eggplants they appear to be quite neatly defined and the edges are reasonably smooth but not over polished or burnished. If this was a casting I'd be looking for evidence of graininess in those indents. I'd want to examine the inside edges of the cut outs too. These are areas that are almost impossible to work with a hammer and punch in the same way as the flat surfaces are. In genuine work you'll generally find these inner surfaces slightly smoother than the outer faces. The nakago ana is always a very good area to examine very closely because it often hasn't been worked as much as the carved areas so the true nature of the metal is sometimes more apparent there, especially the inner walls of the nakago-ana itself.

 

I don't know if what I've written makes any sense as you examine the piece in hand and try to apply what I've describe...you'll have to let me know

 

regards,

fh

Ford, maybe side by side comparisons of similar tsuba....a reproduction next to an authentic one would make it easier to visualize your explanations. You mentioned steel...how do you tell steel from plain iron and in authentic tsuba would they always have been steel..with the exception of the leather ones? As for cast tsuba.....was casting ever used to your knowledge in the Edo period for tsuba or is this a strictly modern thing...thanks!

[Marius]

As for cast tsuba.....was casting ever used to your knowledge in the Edo period for tsuba or is this a strictly modern thing...thanks!

 

Casting has been used by the mirror-makers (kagamishi) who have been producing tsuba too.

[estcrh]

As for cast tsuba.....was casting ever used to your knowledge in the Edo period for tsuba or is this a strictly modern thing...thanks!

 

Casting has been used by the mirror-makers (kagamishi) who have been producing tsuba too.

So that would be bronze? What about cast iron?

[Eddie]

Another one form the same seller. This one far more obvious.

 

...and a third.

 

Seeing a pattern yet? :D

 

Thanks for posting this Ford its been very informative.

 

here is a tsuba a just saw over on Japan yahoo.........its identical to the 3rd link you posted.

 

Regards Edward

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Gabriel,

 

yes, admittedly that first example is quite good. That was what prompted me to use it to start this discussion. I do think, though, that the best protection against falling for these sorts of "pretenders" is to educate oneself better in terms of what qualities that define the really good work. I think it's critical to appreciate the extremely subtle and sophisticated processes these artists used. The problem is that unless you've learnt what specific qualities to appreciate in relation to tsuba it is perfectly reasonable to develop a genuine appreciation for a cast tsuba like the example I showed. What I mean is, the qualities that are generally valued by connoisseurs have evolved ever time and are very much bound up with the processes tsuba-ko used in the past. Had it been possible to produce cast steel tsuba 400 years ago perhaps this particular (cast steel) aesthetic look might have become "acceptable". We can't really say it's not attractive nor a valid expression now either but we can say that it doesn't fit in the classical appreciation of these objects nor does this fit in terms of how these things were made.

 

hello Eric,

 

the casting of non-ferrous metals goes back almost to the dawn of metalwork culture. What I saying is that cast steel, particularly small and detailed things like tsuba, is a completely modern technology. It simply wasn't possible more than 50 years ago. In terms of small scale workshops I suggest no older than 30 years. We use the words iron and steel almost interchangeably but in reality all the ferrous fitting contain some small percentage of carbon so it's technically steel. Iron just sounds more "old world" and less mechanical sometimes

 

Cast iron objects were obviously produced in the past ( tea kettles etc ) but cast iron is extremely brittle and utterly unsuitable for something like a tsuba. If you merely dropped a cast iron sukashi tsuba it would not likely survive the fall never mind be much use in a fight.

 

Hi Edward,

interesting how these copies pop up repeatedly, it's obviously more cost effective to do a few at a time :D Although the tsuba you show (from Yahoo) is clearly a cast copy (to my eyes) they've at least gone to the trouble to add some copper seki-gane to try and add and extra touch of authenticity.

[estcrh]

Hi Gabriel,

 

yes, admittedly that first example is quite good. That was what prompted me to use it to start this discussion. I do think, though, that the best protection against falling for these sorts of "pretenders" is to educate oneself better in terms of what qualities that define the really good work. I think it's critical to appreciate the extremely subtle and sophisticated processes these artists used. The problem is that unless you've learnt what specific qualities to appreciate in relation to tsuba it is perfectly reasonable to develop a genuine appreciation for a cast tsuba like the example I showed. What I mean is, the qualities that are generally valued by connoisseurs have evolved ever time and are very much bound up with the processes tsuba-ko used in the past. Had it been possible to produce cast steel tsuba 400 years ago perhaps this particular (cast steel) aesthetic look might have become "acceptable". We can't really say it's not attractive nor a valid expression now either but we can say that it doesn't fit in the classical appreciation of these objects nor does this fit in terms of how these things were made.

 

hello Eric,

 

the casting of non-ferrous metals goes back almost to the dawn of metalwork culture. What I saying is that cast steel, particularly small and detailed things like tsuba, is a completely modern technology. It simply wasn't possible more than 50 years ago. In terms of small scale workshops I suggest no older than 30 years. We use the words iron and steel almost interchangeably but in reality all the ferrous fitting contain some small percentage of carbon so it's technically steel. Iron just sounds more "old world" and less mechanical sometimes

 

Cast iron objects were obviously produced in the past ( tea kettles etc ) but cast iron is extremely brittle and utterly unsuitable for something like a tsuba. If you merely dropped a cast iron sukashi tsuba it would not likely survive the fall never mind be much use in a fight.

 

Hi Edward,

interesting how these copies pop up repeatedly, it's obviously more cost effective to do a few at a time :D Although the tsuba you show (from Yahoo) is clearly a cast copy (to my eyes) they've at least gone to the trouble to add some copper seki-gane to try and add and extra touch of authenticity.

Thats interesting info that a cast steel tsuba could only be a modern piece, so the steel used on a tsuba would have more carbon content than wrought iron but less carbon then sword steel?

[Thierry BERNARD]

What I saying is that cast steel, particularly small and detailed things like tsuba, is a completely modern technology. It simply wasn't possible more than 50 years ago. In terms of small scale workshops I suggest no older than 30 years.

 

Hi Ford

 

what about namban tsuba, many of them are made with cast iron!!!

 

Regards

[Marius]

Eric,

 

cast iron tsuba have been produced in the Meiji period, as tourist souvenirs, or so they say. You should be perfectly able to distinguish them from forged tsuba - they are awfully crude, thick and sometimes you might see a seem from the casting process. Tons of these on eBay.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ford

 

what about namban tsuba, many of them are made with cast iron!!!

 

Regards

 

Hi Thierry,

 

Some people claim this, I can't say I can agree. As far as I know there is no supporting evidence for this claim and no-one has been able to offer any evidence of the sort of technology this would require. It always amazes me how confidant various "experts" are when it comes to making pronouncements on technique and technology. This, despite the fact that they repeatedly demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of this aspect of the art-form and rarely, if ever, even bother to offer any evidence or go to the trouble of investigating the likely hood of their speculations.

 

I was, however, talking about cast steel which is far stronger then brittle cast iron. In any case I'm not in slightest convinced that Namban tsuba could be cast iron either. I've discussed the processes at length on NMB before and why I think as I do.

Here's one such discussion if you're interested.

As far as I'm concerned the whole subject of tsuba has been flooded with far too much ill-informed opinion from armchair experts that has simply passed into "common knowledge" to be swallowed uncritically by successive generations of collectors. I just wish we could stick to what we can say with reasonable certainty and admit that in some areas we simply just don't know ...yet.

 

regards

ford

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi Ford

 

Here one of my tsuba, I think it's cast iron with additional carving work, ( sorry for the picture quality ) what do you think about it??? ( no offence if you say modern copy!!! :D :D :D )

 

 

Regards

[Ford Hallam]

Thierry,

 

I think that's an amazing bit of work and a really splendid example. Let me turn your question around and ask you to explain why you think your piece is "cast iron with additional carving work"

 

regards,

 

ford

[Mark Green]

Great thread Ford

[drbvac]

Ford: You have convinced me to stick to shiny cutting implements and just enjoy the true works of art when someone else identifies them as such. That said, and this is off topic so could you point me to a site where it shows how they actually make carved steel tsuba? I cant imagine - casting is one thing - I can do lost wax patterns of teeth and turn them into gold but sure as hell couldnt carve one!

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers, Sir Mark

 

Brian,

 

there's is only one place where you can see how steel tsuba are carved;

my own forum :D

 

Steel is not much different to carve than non-ferrous metals really. Little chisels, hammers and lot of patience.

[sanjuro]

Whilst I can usually spot a cast from a forged piece of steel, this one has me foxed. I bought it not caring either way, as a display piece only, and because I am rather fond of this shape, also the texture is quite attractive in its own right. (Sometimes I buy for the strangest reasons).

Now we are having this discussion, it may be a good example of either a total fake or a decent little tsuba.

It feels like steel and there are no casting marks or seams in evidence. On the other hand the nakago is too fresh and clean. The entire tsuba has a coating (Much worn and degraded) of black lacquer of some apparent age. With conflicting indications like this, I dont quite know what to make of it.

I dont mind if you pull this example to pieces as a learning excercise, since it serves the purpose for which I bought it.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Let me turn your question around and ask you to explain why you think your piece is "cast iron with additional carving work"

 

the main reason wich lead me to this conclusion is the way the "seppa dai" is done : for me the motif is not carved

 

Regards