Hi, new member with some questions

[BenVK]

Hello eveyone, a few fellow members of the Wehrmacht Awards forum suggested that I drop in here to learn about Nihonto and they weren't wrong, great forum!

 

I'm thinking about starting a Japanese sword collection. Actualy, it's my girlfriends idea because she's fascinated by swords, already has an antique British cavalry sabre that I bought her but has always really wanted a "Samurai" sword. She also takes fencing lessons so it's best not to argue with her!

 

Anyway, a recent situation has sparked my interest as well. A mate on the WA forum recently posted a sword for sale. He's not an expert either and described it as a WWII Officers sword. It came out of an auction and was apparently bought home to the UK from Burma. Price was about £650 and I told him I'd take but was just a bit too late and it went to a buyer in Canada. I'd like to post some pics of it anyway because it relates to the questions I have as a newbie plus I can pass on the information to the buyer as well because he's a nice bloke. When I first looked at the sword, I recognised that it does have WWII "Shin Gunto" mounts. The blade however looked a lot older than that to me, just gut instinct though. On WA, the Mei was translated as Bizen Osafune-ju Sukekane, that would make it mid 19th century, correct?

 

I did some research on that era of signed blades, the examples I found were mostly on dealer websites and they had blades that the hamon could be clearly seen and in general, were in much better condition. More research revealed that most had been polished, some broken or damaged koshirae had been repaired or replaced and it got me thinking and I have some questions:

 

1. Why is it acceptable to find untouched swords straight out the woodwork and then polish them and change bits and pieces to improve the condition? Is this common practice? In my area of collecting, WWII hats and uniforms, that is huge mistake and greatly reduces the value.

2. I'm assuming therefore that looking for a hamon on an old blade is a mistake because it won't be there in most cases unless it has been recently polished?

3. Machine made blades of WWII vintage won't have a hamon anyway?

 

Anyway, here are the pics of the "Sukekane" sword. I'm pretty sure I missed out on a bargain here but that's no problem. I just want to learn.

 

Cheers fellas.

Ben

 

[BenVK]

I'll post 2 pics at a time, hope that's ok?

[BenVK]

I don't know if this makes sense but when comparing this blade to polished blades, it just looks "soft" if you know what I mean. Does the polishing process remove so much metal that it actualy re-shapes the blade?

[BenVK]

In regards to old un-polished swords, I spotted this one for sale.

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop/v ... 04&phqu=10

The description is either meant to fool new guys like me or it is a true bargain for such an old sword. Knowing British dealers like I do when it comes to my area, Third Reich items, a"bargain" usually means crap. Thoughts?

 

A Nice Signed Ancient Battle Katana, Koto Era, Just in And a Real Bargain By Bizen kuni ju Osafune Tadamitsu, Circa 1530, Almost 500 years old. We have around 15 swords awaiting polishing and cleaning so this early sword we are selling 'as is' is. It is what is refered to as a 'sleeper', likely left untouched [sleeping] for nigh on 200 years, the blade is nice with a stunning hamon, and showing natural ageing and wear so therefore it is being sold really low at a relative bargain price, for just a nominal return, especially for such an early sword by a good and revered smith. This sword was made around the time King Henry the VIIIth was about to marry Anne Boleyn, and Suleiman the Magnificent was capturing Belgrade from the Hungarian Empire, occupying Transylvania and battling the Knights of Rhodes. In Japan it was made during the great warring period, when wars, conflicts and battles were so commonplace as to be near innumerable, and this sword would have been used constantly until around 70 years later when at the Battle of Sekigahara when the Japanese clans was conquered and placed under the rule of the Tokugawa Shogun for the next 250 years. After this period Japan was more relatively peaceful, but still ravaged, throughout the islands, by internecine conflicts and rival clan warfare

[Brian]

At £1895.00 that ain't no bargain. That's $2755 which isn't crazy, but you can get a lot at that price range. The value in Japanese swords does not lie in the age or the history, but in the quality.

Yes, this field is one of the few where properly restored is preferential to keeping it as found. Something us collectors of other stuff have to get over.

To see the beauty, the sword has to be in proper polish. So if you can't see everything in the blade, you cannot appreciate it. Hence why they are polished.

Remember these are no longer considered weapons, but are art now. I am sure others will add a lot to your questions.

 

Brian

[BenVK]

Thanks Brian. I'm starting to see the light.

When you say that the value is in the quality, can you just tell that a blade is quality whether polished or not?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

If the blade is supposed to be made by Yokoyama Sukekane, it is gimei.

[BenVK]

Sorry, gimei means fake? If so, can you explain please?

[BenVK]

Please guys, there is nothing worse than one line answers then silence.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

This blade is a genuine blade but the signature is false.

[BenVK]

Please can you explain your answers...

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Ben,

If you and your girlfriend want to buy a good Japanese sword and not waste money, buy books, study, buy more books, ask your way in to see collections, ask questions (like you're doing), buy more books, try to get to a Japanese sword show, study, study, study. Then you can buy a sword.

It isn't easy but nothing else works.

Grey

[watsonmil]

Dear Ben,

Gimei refers to a false signature. It does not mean that the sword bearing a Gimei is fake, ... but rather the signature is fake. Some swordsmiths or dealers in order to increase the saleability and value of a sword would have the signature of a well respected ( famous maker ) swordsmith inscribed on the tang. This has been going on for a few hundred years. The known original signatures of the smiths are recorded in books, and a comparison of how a given smith signed his name is compared to authenticate. Other factor also enter play here, such as is the sword of the correct time period of the signed smith, .... is the style of work the same as is known for the smith. I hope this assists you in understanding the meaning of Gimei. ... Ron Watson

[Grey Doffin]

About the fake signature: Same as with old oil paintings: a painting with a forged signature of Monet is a real painting with a fake signature. Japanese sword signatures have been forged (faked) for centuries.

Grey

[BenVK]

I really appreciate all the answers. Can I ask what makes the mei fake please? I don't doubt what you guys are saying but if anyone of you had posted an SS visor cap that you thought was genuine but I knew was fake, I would tell you exactlly what it was that made it fake.

 

So far,I have been told it's a fake mei but a real sword but not why so I've learn't exactly nothing.

[Jamie]

What they are saying is, the Mei does not match known examples for the smith. There are SO many gimei blades out there.

[Gabriel L]

Ben, let me break it down for you since you've had a mix of presentational styles so far.

 

1. Why is it acceptable to find untouched swords straight out the woodwork and then polish them and change bits and pieces to improve the condition? Is this common practice? In my area of collecting, WWII hats and uniforms, that is huge mistake and greatly reduces the value.

 

Most true nihonto (Japanese edged weapons) have been painstakingly cared for throughout their history, which includes EXPERT polishing maybe on the order of once a century or more. Japanese togishi (polishers) go through years of scholarship and apprenticeship to be able to work on antiques and adhere to the strictest and most traditional methods which have been going on for some time now. Because of such measures, we are able to enjoy even very very old swords (700+ years), some of which remain quite healthy (lots of material left). The swords you are looking at online are usually of this type, with near-uninterrupted fastidious care in the Japanese tradition.

 

On the other hand, some blades in history have been over-polished or were "thin-skinned" to begin with. And much, MUCH more gravely, very many swords that "come out of the woodwork" in western cultures have been absolutely destroyed by GIs, etc. who "sharpen" or "polish" them with belt sanders, sandpaper, files, etc.—completely and irrevocably ruining them in most cases. A qualified professional may then attempt restoration and improve the situation, but the loss of material is, as you point out, likely to be extreme. In many cases the blade is simply a shadow of its former self or cannot be repaired period. However, sometimes the restoration can be successful, in which case the value increases dramatically.

 

This is just the state of the art, so to speak. It is a completely different field from western curatorship where long-lost artifacts are preserved as-is; instead, it is more of a living tradition of heritage.

 

2. I'm assuming therefore that looking for a hamon on an old blade is a mistake because it won't be there in most cases unless it has been recently polished?

 

Most old nihonto with original "old polish" from Japan will still easily have the hamon and even the hada and some other activity visible. They will be less brilliant and clear, but there nonetheless. The more subtle effects such as utsuri may be masked.

 

It is swords which were appropriated by other nations and which since have been abused or neglected that are more difficult (but often not impossible) to inspect. With a strong light source and the right angle, a hamon is very often discernable, but the details may be obscure and it will be extremely difficult to assess the hada (grain) and impossible to detect more subtle activity.

 

3. Machine made blades of WWII vintage won't have a hamon anyway?

 

Some were oil-tempered and may have a hamon, but this isn't considered especially valuable. Most will not have a true hamon at all. A few WWII swords were forged by traditional smiths (e.g. Yasukuni smiths) and although will have their own wartime "look," will still have true hamon.

 

-----------

 

With regard to the sword you first posted: it is very soft because someone has drastically over-buffed it in a non-traditional manner. This makes it extremely difficult to gauge whether it is a true nihonto or just a mass-manufactured wartime sword. My money is on militaria (not traditional) however. Just a feeling from over 10 years of study, take it or leave it. But you can have it looked over at a sword show or even better a local nihonto club to get a better opinion; photos can only say so much.

 

It is definitely in true WWII mounts and the nakago (tang) is definitely from an authentic Japanese blade, but whether that blade is a low-quality mass-manufactured item or genuine nihonto is too tough for me at least to tell from the photos.

 

-----------

 

As Jacques and Watson explained, in this field we consider authentic to refer more to whether or not the sword is actually from Japanese history (and not one of the countless, COUNTLESS fakes from China). Gimei refers to a false signature and is not considered to make the entire sword "fake," just its authorship so to speak. Collectors have different views on gimei. A sword can be high quality and valuable yet still be gimei, or it can be crap and be gimei; it can be mumei (no signature) and extremely high quality, or it can be mumei and low quality; it can have a genuine signature and be low quality, or a genuine signature and be a masterpiece. It's all contextual and approached on a case-by-case basis.

 

In general, a confirmed signature by a given smith will bring in more money than a mumei blade attributed to the same smith. But even that is not always the case, with some smiths mumei is pretty much expected.

[Gabriel L]

I really appreciate all the answers. Can I ask what makes the mei fake please? I don't doubt what you guys are saying but if anyone of you had posted an SS visor cap that you thought was genuine but I knew was fake, I would tell you exactlly what it was that made it fake.

 

So far,I have been told it's a fake mei but a real sword but not why so I've learn't exactly nothing.

 

Ben,

 

This is a skill that takes years of study and practice and seeing many many examples to become proficient in; it is not usually as simple as saying "X Y Z." But in general, there are several methods of gauging a mei. The first is to compare it against known true examples from the smith, which one does using either actual swords, or with photos / rubbings / scans in textual references (such as Fujishiro's Nihon Toko Jiten, or the Nihonto Koza, for example). The second is to assess the character of the chiseling—gimei often have "weaker" and less confident appearances, conceptually similar to signatures that have been traced vs confidently signed by the actual artist. But that approach is really just a weak corollary of the first. The last is to compare the quality of the sword and its artistry/workmanship to the known qualities of the smith. For instance, a convincing signature might be chiseled in the name of Masamune, but if the blade isn't swirling with activity of very particular types (large brilliant nie, plentiful chikei, etc.) but is instead a piece of crap, well, it's gimei no question—like finding a convincing Rembrandt signature on a finger painting.

[BenVK]

I am so grateful to you Gabriel for taking the time to explain rather than just express you opinion.

[Gabriel L]

Hi Ben,

 

No problem, I like explaining the landscape to new collectors. It helps me forget how little I actually know compared to some of the other people on this forum. :lol:

 

Don't take it personally when you get abrupt replies. Most students of nihonto get tired of writing the exact same things year after year to each new member. Typically I won't write as much as I did in this thread, but instead will take the easy way out of linking to some good sources for beginners:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_books_nihonto.html

http://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

 

Etc.

 

Anyway, welcome to the board. It really is the best English-language online forum on this topic, lots of the members are highly knowledgeable (again, more than me). With patience I am sure you'll find even the tersest posts to be useful. In fact, sometimes the best advice comes in the fewest words...

[BenVK]

It's really no problem at all. I too get tired of explaining what to look for regarding TR militaria but it's a pretty simple job compared with Nihonto!

What I tried to do though was put some questions out there that showed that I'd done some research first rather just ask "original or not, value?"

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

This one is a genuine Yokoyama Sukekane:

 

http://www.seiyudo.com/347.htm

[Gabriel L]

By the way Ben, it occurred to me you might not have noticed the board has a commercial links section:

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/ (look at the top menu)

 

And Dr. Stein also has a very good commercial link list:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sites2.htm

 

If you are looking for a good real nihonto at reasonable prices, start there. There are many dealers listed with varying items at varying prices, so you will still have to shop around, but at least this is a more dependable starting point than eBay, random classifieds on nonrelated fora, or general antiques dealers.

 

But as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, STUDYING is the number one way to actually figure out what is a good buy (and why!). Books should be purchase number 1; swords can follow down the road. No hurry, right?

[BenVK]

Thanks again Gabriel. I probably came across as an impatient, annoying newbie. If so, I apologise. I totaly realise this is going to take years of study and there are no short cuts.

 

I'd like to ask one last question about the sword I posted then I promise to shut up about it! The mei have been identified as gimei but the blade as original. Is it possible to tell me a little more? What era, hand or machine made, good or average quality? Many thanks.

[hybridfiat]

Hi welcome to the board, take the time to read all the info at this link it will explain a lot and save some angst.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html

[Rich S]

Ben -

 

Let me try to clarify some of your questions; I haven't seen the sword, so am answering in a general way to your questions.

 

It is a real sword - it was made in Japanese by an actual swordsmith using traditional methods. Therefore a "real" sword.

 

Gimei - a false signature, someone (maybe recently, maybe centuries ago) decided to "enhance" the value of the sword by carving the signature of a famous smith. How does you know that? By comparing to known, authenticated examples of the famous smith's signature (mei). This has been a common practice for centuries and is one of the main reasons for shinsa -where knowledgeable experts can look at the sword, its characteristics, signature, etc and compare them to known authentic examples.

 

Polishing vs leaving in "found" state: this is just a matter of custom of the particular culture and collectors ethic. The Japanese like to see swords in excellent condition regardless of age or how found. Other collector groups, like German memorabilia, Bowie knife collectors, etc like to have things in an "as found" condition feeling the cleaning destroys part of the history of the object.

 

Hope this helps a little. Nihonto is a very complex and confusing area of collecting. I've been studying and collecting for over 30 years and still don't feel I know more than a baby in the field.

 

Rich S

[raven2]

Hi Ben,

 

Welcome to the board. Just my 2 cents. Brian advised you to keep looking because there are other blades out there that are much better deals. It took me quite a while but I got this one a short while ago from one of the commercial sites for the same price range, in this case $2800. I am not trying to toot my own horn but I believe in this case it is applicable since there is a great difference in the blades and by coincidence, my blade is also gimei.

 

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7321

[BenVK]

Thank you gentlemen, the amount of information to take in is a bit overwhelming but very welcome.

Prehaps the first sword that I posted photos of is not a good example to try and identify as a learning tool?

For example, I'm really struggling to see anything of note about the Kissaki. I can see no Yokote of Boshi. (Photos on page 1)

Is it possible the blade has been shortened?

[raven2]

Hard to tell due the excessive polishing. The blade is very tired but I would hazard a guess at a chu kissaki. The yokote is not evident because of the excessive polishing. If you can't see a hamon, you probably are not going to be able to see the boshi either. The blade needs to be in better polish to see them.

[BenVK]

Understood Fred, thanks.

I'll leave you guys alone now and see you again in about 5 years when I've learn't some of the basics! :lol: