Close pics of new sword

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

I finally got around to taking some nice close up pics of the wonderful hada on my newest sword.

This is the sword. It is a likely Koto cutdown.

I will post measurement all around, on this thread, for all you guys that like to play at picture guessing

This is the sword

 

Nagasa: Now 237/8 in. All I can guess at this is that the last time it was cut, it may have been for a non samurai. Keeping under the legal limit?

 

Original? looks like 26.5 from the looks of the nakago changes, or much longer. But if the first ana is the orig., that would be my best guess.

Another cut at 25 in. nagasa

 

Sori: now, 2.1cm / more like 2.5 orig. Slightly sakizori

 

Motohaba 3.2cm at 6mm/w

Sakihaba 2cm at 4.5mm/w Nice Fumbari!

The shinogi is about 1mm higher then the mune with

low iorimune

Kiri, or slightly katte-sagari file marks

chu-kissaki

ko-itame

Boshi: You can see the pics. One side looks notarekomi? the other side You tell me?

Hamon: I would say o notareba. Can't make out any features in the hamon in this old polish.

well cut, deep single bohi both sides

Overall, my guess would be Yamashiro

 

some pics of the nice hada

very pretty steel!!!

More to come.

[Mark Green]

Some more pics:

[Curran]

Thought I claim to have gone entirely over to the dark side (just fittings collection), I can be lured out now and then to look an an interesting one.

 

The geometry has been softened, but the jigane looks nice. Had a good polish at one point. The nakago was canted a bit? or it it just the horimono a bit strange there. Could be?

My first impression from the jigane and general shape (pre/post shortening).... I was surprised to see you describe the hamon as o-notare ba, yet with chu-kissaki and ko-itame.

 

But interesting looking jigane. Hope more is revealed as you study it.

[Mark Green]

Hi Curran,

Yes, the Notare, is just my best guess, with the old hadori being very bright, making it near impossible to see what is there.

I willl try to get some good pics of the hamon.

 

While the jigane does look a bit mokume in some spots, I would still say Itame overall.

I'm with you about the orig. nakago cant. I'll see if I can get some good geometry pics of that area.

thanks for looking.

[Mark Green]

OK then,

Using my art lamp, and holding at some tough angles, I was able to get some ok true hamon pics.

[Mark Green]

Here we go Curran.

Here is a good look at the bohi shift in the nakago. It narrows slightly to the end.

 

Even in this scuffed up old polish the steel is so nice

[jason_mazzy]

I am a fan of the multiple mounting holes. that sword has probably seen alot in it's life as a weapon.

[James]

I am a fan of the multiple mounting holes.

 

???

[Jean]

Jason is associaating multiple nakago ana/O suriage with Kurosawa action pictures Ran/Kagemusha very old having seen much use ... In a word, he is enthusiastic....

[sanjuro]

Enthusiastic yes.......

However, one must also recognise that a sword having seen much use as a weapon would likely not be in the healthy condition of this blade. Also the multiple mounting holes (Have we stopped calling them mekugi ana?) may only reflect the number of times the blade has been shortened and/or remounted. Enthusiasm mixed with romantic nonsense may not of course see it quite thus. :D

[Mark Green]

Keith has some great points Jason.

I feel the multi mekugi ana are more about the quality of the jigane of this sword.

I feel it is very likely that it's last period owner was non Samurai. Hence the 23 7/8 in length. Only Samurai could carry a sword over 24 in. long.

The last polish seems to have been very good quality. And the last mountings were very nice. It came direct from Japan. In 1945 it was presented to a US Army Col., by the head man of some town in central Japan. Now to me.

Most swords that saw a lot of action, ended up on the scrap heap. Or may have been very polished down. We all know how hard it is to keep rust off these swords living in your nice dry house. Just think about what a month or two in the field would do to them. Used in battle or not!

[mdiddy]

Hey Mark,

 

Thanks for the add'l pics. Are the areas in the below photos tempered? Tobiyaki, yubashiri, large gunome?

 

Matt

[Mark Green]

Hi Matt,

No, those are scuff marks in the polish. The saya had become split, and had been taped tightly together. These scuffs happened all along the one side.

I'm still seeing notare hamon imo.

I feel the polisher got a bit creative with the hadori lines. Without the bright lights, it is very hard to see the true line.

[jason_mazzy]

other than battle damage, or the non samurai clause, why else would a sword be shortened? A nice sword with bo-hi, cut nakago and several remounts seems to me to be a good candidate for some kind of action other than sitting on the mantle, overhearing politics.

[moss]

Jason,

 

No chance of any kind of action for a nihonto blade these days.

Unless you have a secret time machine and head back a few centuries.

So I suppose they will all have to be content with resting on the mantle and listening to politics or similar drivel.

 

Cheers Moss

[jason_mazzy]

Well I was thinking we could start an underground fightclub, where we battle with nihonto. But we may run out of members quickly............. Just a thought

[jason_mazzy]

Enthusiastic yes.......

However, one must also recognise that a sword having seen much use as a weapon would likely not be in the healthy condition of this blade. Also the multiple mounting holes (Have we stopped calling them mekugi ana?) may only reflect the number of times the blade has been shortened and/or remounted. Enthusiasm mixed with romantic nonsense may not of course see it quite thus. :D

 

 

If it were not for romanticism, I highly doubt any of us, not of Japanese decent would have ever picked up a blade.... or be born from our mothers wombs for that matter.

[Lee Bray]

If it were not for romanticism, I highly doubt any of us, not of Japanese decent would have ever picked up a blade.... or be born from our mothers wombs for that matter.

 

Interesting topic of discussion. For another time and another forum.

[sanjuro]

Jason.

 

There has been no major samurai military actions in Japan other than police actions and a couple of sieges post 1604, since the battle of Sekigahara in 1598. This sword has been sitting and listening to politics as you put it, for 500 years (Most of its life). The life of a sword is measured by the actions it has seen. Old Japanese saying "The life of a sword equals one battle or 500 years". (Thomas Helm will probably correct me on that).

The reasons for cutting down a sword are those given, there are no others apart from blade breakage at the mekugi ana. Any sword such as this one that has survived beyond the Sengoku Jidai without being destroyed in action or lost in action is fortunate indeed, and we are equally fortunate in still having it to ponder upon.

We have no way of knowing why this one survived in such good condition. It is likely to have originally belonged to a samurai that was not directly involved in the fighting ie. A senior or very high ranking samurai. After that is anybody's guess.

 

Though I'm not treating your suggestion of an underground fight club seriously, a few facts might dull your enthusiasm for such a thing. On a one to one basis the chances of walking away from a sword fight is one in three. On a battlefield basis over a third of the combatants die in the first clash. Casualties of up to 70% were not uncommon in prolonged engagements. 70,000 men died at Sekigahara alone in a three day engagement. Conclusion....... Dont be too eager to face a man with a sword in his hand when he knows how to use it!

 

Sorry about the lecture everyone............ :D

[Mark Green]

It's all about the steel

[sanjuro]

Mark.

 

On further inspection of the pics it occurs to me that this blade was much longer than you have estimated. Your estimation is based on the lowest mekugi ana being the original one. I think perhaps that the original was below the present nakago jiri.

The reason I think this is because of the Hi end shape which is common on swords whose hi end before the habaki. Those that continue below the habaki usually either simply shallow out or are cut through the nakago length and just drop off the end so to speak. Finishing a hi with a rounded end is more likely when the end was to be seen on the mounted blade. Bear in mind its not an easy task to end a hi so neatly, and you wouldnt do it unless there was a reason.

 

Just a thought......

[jason_mazzy]

Jason.

 

There has been no major samurai military actions in Japan other than police actions and a couple of sieges post 1604, since the battle of Sekigahara in 1598. This sword has been sitting and listening to politics as you put it, for 500 years (Most of its life). The life of a sword is measured by the actions it has seen. Old Japanese saying "The life of a sword equals one battle or 500 years". (Thomas Helm will probably correct me on that).

The reasons for cutting down a sword are those given, there are no others apart from blade breakage at the mekugi ana. Any sword such as this one that has survived beyond the Sengoku Jidai without being destroyed in action or lost in action is fortunate indeed, and we are equally fortunate in still having it to ponder upon.

We have no way of knowing why this one survived in such good condition. It is likely to have originally belonged to a samurai that was not directly involved in the fighting ie. A senior or very high ranking samurai. After that is anybody's guess.

 

Though I'm not treating your suggestion of an underground fight club seriously, a few facts might dull your enthusiasm for such a thing. On a one to one basis the chances of walking away from a sword fight is one in three. On a battlefield basis over a third of the combatants die in the first clash. Casualties of up to 70% were not uncommon in prolonged engagements. 70,000 men died at Sekigahara alone in a three day engagement. Conclusion....... Dont be too eager to face a man with a sword in his hand when he knows how to use it!

 

Sorry about the lecture everyone............ :D

 

You are right when you said i was not serious. But on a serious note a few of us here have already done something like that. i myself am a disabled combat veteran, who spent quite sometime in a wheelchair after being in afghanistan.

[sanjuro]

Jason.

 

All due respect but I dont quite see the relevance of your comment. I took a nine millimetre slug in the thigh in Vietnam... However, it has no bearing on this discussion.

[Toryu2020]

Old Japanese saying "The life of a sword equals one battle or 500 years".

 

Never heard that one before Keith - can't imagine why I would need to correct you - I may want to use this myself...

-t

[sanjuro]

Hi Thomas.

 

I couldnt remember at the time of posting if the saying was one battle or two. I thought if you had heard the saying and I was wrong, that I would most certainly be corrected. I checked.... It was one battle after all Feel free to use it....... I have no monopoly on old Japanese sayings.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Oakeshott has a similar one:

 

"A sword has three battles or three hundred years in it, whatever comes first.".

[jason_mazzy]

Jason.

 

 

 

Though I'm not treating your suggestion of an underground fight club seriously, a few facts might dull your enthusiasm for such a thing. On a one to one basis the chances of walking away from a sword fight is one in three. On a battlefield basis over a third of the combatants die in the first clash. Casualties of up to 70% were not uncommon in prolonged engagements. 70,000 men died at Sekigahara alone in a three day engagement. Conclusion....... Dont be too eager to face a man with a sword in his hand when he knows how to use it!

 

Sorry about the lecture everyone............ :D

 

 

The statement was in relevance to this post ^

 

and thank you for your service also. looks like a few of us are former military.

[sanjuro]

Jason

 

As regards the quote: They were old battles.

All battles are old when the sun rises on the following day. The lucky ones see the sun rise.

 

Let's turn our attention to Mark's sword shall we?

[Mark Green]

Keith, and gang,

I will take some new full length shots. See if we can figure it out.

You may be right. It could have been much longer. The entire Nakago looks newer then the steel does imo

 

M

[Brian]

This is me cracking the whip...back to work..umm..er...on topic I mean.

 

Brian