Seki stamped gendaito? ....I don't think so.

[Guest Simon Rowson]

Hi everyone,

 

After a hectic New Year, I was scanning eBay today when I came across item number 270078064135, a gunto signed "Heida Hidemitsu", from the US dealer Candelaria2007.

 

This is a well established dealer with very good feedback who sells an awful lot of Japanese swords on eBay......sometimes some pretty good pieces.

 

However, this item, described by him as a "WW2 true gendaito in shin-gunto mounts/ traditionally made/ hand forged/ folded & water temper", has a Seki arsenal stamp clearly pointed out on the 7th picture.

 

Now fair play to the seller for actually highlighting the stamp but why on earth is it being listed as a "true gendaito" in the first place?

 

I know there have been endless debates about the "star" stamp of the Rikugun Jumei Tosho but I thought that everyone in the Nihonto community was pretty much agreed that anything with a Seki or Showa stamp was to be classed as a machine made Showato? It certainly indicates that it was NOT made of tamahagane using traditional forging methods and that, I thought, was the fundamental definition of a gendaito (or of a Japanese art sword in general).

 

Basically, if I bought that sword and had it sent to me here in Japan it would be confiscated by Customs and/ or destroyed the minute they saw that stamp.......that's a good enough indication to me about whether it's a "true gendaito" or not!

 

Simon

 

I've tried to give the full link below:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-Japanese-Sword- ... 0078064135

[paulb]

As you rightly say there has been endless debate over the years regarding stamped swords. The original convention, and I think the one that still applies when importing swords in to Japan is that swords with Showa or seki stamps are not regarded as art swords they are treated as purely weapons not made with traditional material (although I understand this is not possible to prove non- distructively)

Against this you have evidence in the form of letters by such Showa Smiths as Kanezane who confirm they made swords using traditional methods and material. Over the years I have owned 2 kanezanes, both with Showa stamps. Both had clear hada and nioi based hamon and looked hand made.

Some while ago there was the suggestion that the showa stamp represented a collection point rather than an arsenal manufacturing stamp, not sure if this has been proven or not.

Although I am sure the debate will continue on into the distant future I believe that as of today sending a stamped sword to Japan is not a good idea and ownership of such in Japan is still illegal. Perhaps the more experieince resinents of Japan can confirm or update us on current law.

[kusunokimasahige]

On the e-bay photos of the guy i can see a clear "crack" /badly forged fold on the cutting edge....

 

http://members.aol.com/emolinier/hide09.jpg

 

would that be considered a fatal flaw at shinsa?

 

KM

 

personally i would stay away from this one....

[Stephen]

Eric got a bit carried away on this one...no Kizu??? the bidding reflects this swrod, he does have good sword from time to time this is not one of them, cant make it out does it look like a seki stamp to eveyone?

[QuangD]

Hi Simon,

 

Here is another sword in Japan, that looks like it has mini arsenal stamp which removed.

 

http://www.samurai-nippon.net/536/

 

If you examined closely on the date side, you will see the evidence of someone removed the mini stamp.

 

In General, some arsenal stamp swords do show poorly making...ie....activities in hamon and grain structure. However, few of them I counter are quite impressive where there is a lot of activities in the hamon and the grain structures showed well. As Rich stein mentioned on his website. these individual blades must examine in hand to have better judgement.

[Stephen]

looks like it had a major file job and not very well done...it does show you what a polish can do for a gunto blade.

 

BTW got love the Bisyu Osafune Yokoyama Sukekane saku hes got up for sale....where are the Lotto Gods!

[QuangD]

You can also check out

 

Katana:Tsuda Echizen no kami Sukehiro　

 

Wakizashi:Ryuoshi Minamotono Sadatsugu

 

Katana:Mumei（no signature) Enju　(Juyo blade)

 

Very nice but Tanto:Gassan Sadakazu　is not much appealing to me...eventhough I do like Sadakazu works...

[pcfarrar]

http://www.samurai-nippon.net/ has some good swords at resonable prices. Anyone done business with him in the past?

[kusunokimasahige]

it strikes me as a bit odd that in Japanese sword-laws the swords with arsenal stamp are considered to be weapons, and older, better, and sharper swords are considered to be artwork......

 

because in the wrong hands they obiousely are the same thing.......

 

 

KM

[Stephen]

in Japan that looks to have a seki stamped removed...anyone in Nippon know how this works, can you have a stamp removed then sell it?

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06311.html

[kusunokimasahige]

funny to see such a badly removed stamp when a togishi could make it as if there never was a stamp!

 

KM

[Guest Simon Rowson]

I've often seen badly removed stamps and, in one case, a Japanese dealer of some repute offering a supposedly "Edo period" katana that still had a "Seki" stamp on the nakago! It would be totally unfair of me to "name any names" as the link is no longer available but I wonder how the dealer was able to get the sword into Japan in the first place? Perhaps it was one of the gunto that surface from time to time in Japan, having never been handed in to the authorities (yes, there are some...even now).

 

Regarding Paulb's reply about stamped blades, I agree that some "Sho" stamped blades can look hand forged (I've seen convincing examples by both Kanezane and Kato Jumyo) and, on Mr Stein's excellent site, the Kanezane article ends by saying:

"To my knowledge no Kanesane blades have received origami from either the NBTHK or NTHK, although several have received Torokusho certificates (registration cards) in Japan. Only traditionally made swords are allowed to be registered in Japan."

 

However, we are not told if the blades so registered were unstamped (or had had the stamp removed) and Kanezane is certainly known to have made "medium grade gendaito" as well as "medium to high grade Showato" (quotes from Slough's book).

 

I've never seen any "Seki" stamped blades that appeared to be anything but machine-made Showato and Richard Fuller, in his definitive "Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks", says of the two stamps:

 

"The "Sho" (abbreviation for "Showa") stamp seems to be general military (probably army) stamp of no specific blade-making centre used prior to late 1941 or early 1942. The earliest observed date is May 1940. Most seem to be "sunobe abura yaki-ire" (drawn, hammered and oil-tempered mill-steel) and not arsenal-produced machine-made. Use is thought to have been restricted to blades sold through the Army Officers Club (Kaikosha), which presumably means they could be bought "off the shelf".

Swordsmiths came under the control of the Army Blade Department around late 1941 or early 1942. The "Sho" stamp seems to have been adandoned in favour of stamps relating to specific blade-producing centres. The most common of these is that of "Seki" which is normally seen on blades dating from December 1941. Neither the "Sho" or "Seki" stamps indicate the method of blade manufacture, only that they are not tamahagane gendaito."

 

Therefore, whilst I acknowledge that some stamped blades exhibit a hada and even nioi (heck, even "Mantetsu" swords that were made from railway tracks display a hada of sorts) they should not be classified as true Nihonto which were always created as works of art as well as being functional weapons. Certainly the dealer on eBay should not describe a "Seki" stamped sword as a "true gendaito"........it's a little like selling a print with a bit of hand-colouring as a "true oil-painting"!

 

Simon