Strider Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 I see a lot of tsuba listed on ebay and some of them seem nice but my question is this. Are these pieces in the nice wooden boxes fakes? It seems like there would not be a never ending supply of these things showing up on the market, and I wonder if they are not being created to fill a void. Thanks for any input Scott E. Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 Hi Scott, Yes and no. Like most things collectable you have to be able to seperate the gold from the dross. Where ever there is a demand there are fakers/fraudsters. There were thousands made through history. John Quote
Bungo Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 I see a lot of tsuba listed on ebay and some of them seem nice but my question is this. Are these pieces in the nice wooden boxes fakes? It seems like there would not be a never ending supply of these things showing up on the market, and I wonder if they are not being created to fill a void. Thanks for any input Scott E. compare these two......................... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1 and then............. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1 have fun..............newbies. milt the ronin Quote
Brian Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 Scott, If you are just talking about the proliferation of tsuba, then refer to the comments already made. If however you are talking about the number of them that come with tsuba boxes, this is not an indication of how they were originally manufactured or stored. Tsuba boxes are the modern method used to store and display tsuba in a collection. The boxes are available everywhere, and those tsuba you mention are just supposedly old tsuba in new boxes sold that way for convenience and added benefit. Most fakes don't come with decent tsuba boxes, but as you get to the higher level of fakes, then yes..they might be pictured and sold with these boxes. There are many levels of fakes..from cheap Chinese junk easily spotted to modern copies of famous makers done in Japan and elsewhere that are designed to deceive. As for the number of tsuba out there..I would guess there are very many more tsuba than swords in existence. Lots of fakes...but plenty of good, original tsuba. The fakes can be even more of a problem to identify than the swords, so the usual rules of buying from reputable sellers and stores applies. If in doubt, ask the forum for advice. Lots of genuine tsuba on eBay every day comming out of Japan and elsewhere in tsuba boxes. Quality varies of course. Regards, Brian Quote
Stephen Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 on ebay tsuba what is everyones take on the new bidder id, no longer can i see that muramasaii is in on it and id just as soon back off than get caught up in a sniping war. I understad the reasion behind it as alot of second chance offers was making a muck of it. My self id like to know who's on first. how about you? Ronin the one your bidding on looks more of a copy than the other...guess thats why i stay away from tosogu. thanks for pointing them out. Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 Hi Stephen, A few sellers have had ID private bidding before, and I did like to see who was bidding to check for shill bidding. Most auctions are still ID transparent are they not? I hope you don't mean they all will become private, too much room for manipulation. John Quote
Stephen Posted January 11, 2007 Report Posted January 11, 2007 they also have a new option of showing the bidder as bidder 1 bidder 2 and on....not everyons using it but expect more to follow. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Well Milt........... here we go... first one is fake second one is real....... and i dont say that because of the price difference, i say that because of the punch marks... WELLLLLLL????????? KM Quote
Stephen Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 hes high bidder on the first one if that tells you anything. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 OOPSSSSSSSSS hahahahaha well i am actually only interested in tsuba because of their functionality in battle....... really..... KM Quote
Stephen Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 you bring up a good point, Tsuba are most often looked at for their artistic merits and not the weight or balance it brings to a sword, that also came into play for the samurai, not just for the blissful Zen moment before he would cut off someone's head, he would be sure of the balance and fluidity of his cut. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Indeed, and i have seen a lot of stuba which wouldnt stand a single parry, which leads me to believe there would have been a classification/division during the Samurai era, like an aesthetic tsuba and a battle ready one... KM Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Hi KM, I just want to mention here that the tsuba was not intended to parry a strike though of course it would happen occasionally. Remember there were actual tsuba that were made of lacquered leather. The primary function was to prevent the hands from sliding onto the cutting edge. John Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Ah thank you, i did not know that... and have difficulty believing it..... i always thought it functioned just like the European hand guard... KM Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Hi KM, The European sword had very simple guards until the innovation of the rapier like weapons and the change from slash to thrust style of swordplay. There was a period where they became more and more complicated then the trend reversed in the smallsword era. There were some slashing weapons that had large guards eg. falchion but even with the sabre like weapons of the late 18th and 19th centuries the hand guard was minimal. The parry to a nihonto, a slashing sword would have a better chance of success using the flat of the sword rather than the minute area of the tsuba. If you check some of the kenjutsu ryu you will see what I mean. John Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Thank you very much john, I am happy to learn more every day! I practise kendo myself. and indeed we parry more by using the "flat" side... best wishes, KM Quote
Bungo Posted January 12, 2007 Report Posted January 12, 2007 Well Milt........... here we go... first one is fake second one is real....... and i dont say that because of the price difference, i say that because of the punch marks... WELLLLLLL????????? KM well, I wouldn't call it a " fake " but rather a later copy of the design.........it would be fun to clean it up and see how it turns out. milt the ronin Quote
Steffen W. Gjerding Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 Hi. I am new here and this is my first post at this forum and a beginner of authentic and antique pieces. Beginner at the sword actually. So I hope that some of these questions do not sound stupid. What do you see in an old piece? How is it possible to tell the different between an old authentic piece and a copy? Sure you have good copies and some not that good. Like those tsubas in question at the start here. Is it just that it have more rust spots that the other one? The second one looks a bit more symmetrical in bends and corners. Could that have to do with that the other one is older and have lost some of its shape? Tell me some of your views on the two tsubas, and tell me what you think of when comparing them. Kindest regards, Steffen Gjerding Quote
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