Visible differences between Oil Quench and Water Quench?

[Jamie]

So I went and looked at a Gunto last night. Although the owner told me it was in "good" condition and had no rust or pitting- it had been lightly damaged by some type of power tool. Like Maybe a dremel with a wirebrush or something. And it had a bit of the beginnings of rust. So I cleaned it up a little bit with Uchiko powder and choji oil. After doing that I could see a faint gunome Hamon. But I couldn't tell if it was water or oil quenched. It had no Stamp on the tang, and no Mei. Nagasa was 25 3/4. Rust was dark orange, had not blackened yet. He is supposed to send me pictures today, so hopefully i'll have them soon. I couldn't see any hada whatsoever. But I also couldn't tell if that was due to the scratches or that it simply wasn't there. I'm pretty familiar with Current production monosteel blades, and the aside from the hamon- the metal looked like that moreso than a forged blade( from whwt I understand many war blades were made from bar stock steel). Also No Yokote line- but again they used some sort of abrasive power tool on it- so that could have just been filed away. More than likely it wasn't there though- I couldn't see any geometric change in it. I am not overly familiar with ginto's. I study Nihonto. And I was basiclly just making sure it wasn't an old blade. My actual question is what are the visible differences between an Oil quench and a water Quench? Anybody know?

Thank you in advance.

 

Jamie

[Bruno]

what are the visible differences between an Oil quench and a water Quench? Anybody know?

 

Not sure this can answer your question, but at least I hope it is a clue:

 

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Metallurgica ... REPORT.htm

[Jamie]

Thanks Bruno

[estcrh]

Thanks Bruno

Jamie, there was a thread very recently discussing just what you were asking about, if you use the search function you should be able to find it.

[Jamie]

Chris,

 

Might you expand on this a bit.

I am curious as to the visible differences between Oil Quench, and Water.

 

Thanks

 

Jamie

[cabowen]

The differences in appearance are difficult to describe but in general, a western steel or non-tamahagane blade that is oil quenched will have very little to no nie, no activity, and usually hard, shiny points or spots in the peaks of the hamon if done in gunome, sanbon sugi, etc. Usually they are done is suguba with a painted on or acid etched look to them. The habuchi is indistinct.

 

The other thing to look for is the hada. If there is no hada then it is not a forged blade. If the blade was not forged it means it was mass produced and not tamahagane. Water quenching takes much more skill than an oil quench and consequently oil was used almost exclusively for mass production.

 

It bears mentioning that there were blades made of steels other than tamahagane that were forged and water quenched. Hayama Enshin, Miyamoto Kanenori, Horii Toshihide, Miyaguchi Kunimori, to a few of the more prominent smiths, are known to have done this. When viewing these blades, one is struck by the absence of activity in the hamon. Usually, a simple suguba with next to nothing going on in the hataraki department....

 

It appears that two ingredients are necessary to create an active ji-ba: tamahagane and a water quench.

 

I have had conversations with modern Western blade smiths who tell me they can get all kinds of activity with western steel and oil quenching but I would attribute this to their deep knowledge of metallurgy and the time to experiment. Both quantities most WWII amateur smiths lacked....

 

There are other things to look for as well if the hamon and hada are not visable, chiefly the presence of the showa, seki, and other stamps (other than the star stamp), the smith's reputation, the quality of the mei and the nakago finishing. Most professional smiths did not make oil quenched mass produced gunto. Jumei Toshi were making blades for the military under contract and provided with tamahagane. These are usually star stamped later in the war. Known smiths with a known teacher-student lineage did not, in general, make oil quenched blades. If the mei is well cut and the nakago well shaped and finished, it is probably a sign that the blade was not mass produced. Most mumei WWII era blades were not made by professional smiths; though there are the rare exceptions, usually it is a mass produced blade or a blade that failed inspection.

 

Again, there are always exceptions, but there general rules will usually get one by.

 

I can not stress enough how important it is to see high quality gendaito by professional smiths to train your eye. It may come as a surprise but a first rate blade by the likes of Horii Toshihide, Tsukamoto Okimasa, Kajiyama Yasunori, Yoshihara Kuniie, etc., looks very much like older work- beautifully active ji-ba with crisp filework and good proportions. If you learn to recognize what quality is you will know, irregardless of period, if it is a blade worth spending time with....

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Chris, good to see you here sharing your wealth of knowledge.

 

what are the visible differences between an Oil quench and a water Quench?

 

"Imagery to remember" is that reflected light off of a water quenched hamon is similar to the light seen bouncing off of fresh powdery snow on a clear sunny day. By comparison the light bouncing off of an oil quenched hamon will be similar to light bouncing off of an oily puddle of water on asphalt on a bright but mostly cloudy day.

[Brian]

Chris,

Great to see you posting, and thanks for the valuable insight.

 

Brian

[Jamie]

Thanks guys.