Nobuiye (?) with questionable manufacture method?

[cspage]

First of all, I would like to say that I have absolutely no expectations of this tsuba. I got it purely for its oddities (at least from my brief experience) and hope there will be comments and observations from which I can learn. I changed the title of this post to elicite attention from some metal workers.

Firstly, the surface of the tsuba has a waxy kinda of feel to it, almost like someone had taken shoe polish to it. Secondly, the sekigane at the mune end of the nakago ana looks like someone took a chisel to it on the omote side, very bright and freshly cut. The inside surface, however, shows the a consistent aged patina as the rest of the inner side of all hitsuana. The ha end sekigane of the nakago ana appears to be silver (?). Not lead, very silvery. Thirdly, the turtle sukashi looks and even feels like it was removed from another tsuba or made separately and somehow added to this one. The working of the surface surrounding the sukashi has an alien appearance from the way the rest of the surface is treated, with even the edges of the work area visible and some surface smoothing/chiseling(?) around the tail of the turtle. And finally, the hexagonal pattern of the surface is carried over onto the mimi (which is cool).

 

Width: 6.4cm

Hight: 6.75cm

Thickness at mimi: 5mm

Weight: 100.9g

 

Thanks for any observations.

 

Colin

[Marius]

First of all, I would like to say that I have absolutely no expectations of this tsuba. I got it purely for its oddities (at least from my brief experience) and hope there will be comments and observations from which I can learn. I changed the title of this post to elicite attention from some metal workers.

Firstly, the surface of the tsuba has a waxy kinda of feel to it, almost like someone had taken shoe polish to it. Secondly, the sekigane at the mune end of the nakago ana looks like someone took a chisel to it on the omote side, very bright and freshly cut. The inside surface, however, shows the a consistent aged patina as the rest of the inner side of all hitsuana. The ha end sekigane of the nakago ana appears to be silver (?). Not lead, very silvery. Thirdly, the turtle sukashi looks and even feels like it was removed from another tsuba or made separately and somehow added to this one. The working of the surface surrounding the sukashi has an alien appearance from the way the rest of the surface is treated, with even the edges of the work area visible and some surface smoothing/chiseling(?) around the tail of the turtle. And finally, the hexagonal pattern of the surface is carried over onto the mimi (which is cool).

Colin

 

Colin, unless there is shoe-polish on this tsuba (which I doubt, but you can cook it in clean water for a few minutes to check if there is some, the "waxy feel" would indicate good patina.

 

I don't want to risk the scorn of more knowledgeable people here, but I think that we can safely assume that this is a 19th century Nobuiye style piece. The copper sekigane looks bright maybe because someone, while cleaning the plate, has not spared the sekigane. I have made this error myself once. Also, the copper sekigane is probably newer anyway that the silver-alloy one.

 

The turtle sukashi is a bit of a mystery, but I doubt someone would go through the pain of having it transferred form another tsuba. I rather think it was done of purpose. Do you have any better pics of that area?

 

I must say, I quite like your tsuba.

[cspage]

Mariusz, thank you for taking a look. I will take some closer pics of the area around the turtle tonight. In my limited experinece with tsuba I've not had the pleasure of handling one with this rich waxy patina. Good to know it's normal. In handling the tsuba, the turtle sukashi area even feels to be minutely thicker than the rest of the tsuba. It is puzzling to me. I also forgot to mention there is a nifty shaduko sekigane in the kozuka ana. I also like the tsuba, and I am always interested in learning the processes by which things are made, so these little oddities intrigue me.

 

Colin

[Pete Klein]

Hi Colin -- if possible please post a close up of the mei.

Thanks much!

Pete Klein

[cspage]

Pete, will put more pics up tomorrow morning (PDT). Thanks.

 

Colin

[Marius]

Pete, will put more pics up tomorrow morning (PDT). Thanks.

 

Please do. Contrary to the "common wisdom" experts often DO start with the signature. If they find it gimei, there is no reason to further dwell on the sword/kodogu...

[cspage]

Sounds pretty harsh, Mariusck. I'm not sure if there's irony in your comment or not. Not that I'm complaining. I'm just learning and any new info is helpful. As I said, I have no expectations of this tsuba. I do know the signature is not really clear and powerful, but closeup pics will be helpful and will probably be definitive, one way or the other. I did not buy the tsuba because of the signature, anyway, and I didn't pay much. I am considering this as just paying tuition for a class in the subject, a very specific subject. I'm happy, no matter the verdict.

 

Colin

[Mark Green]

Colin,

I think that is a great looking tsuba.

Why shouldn't the turtle be ok. With all that turtle shell design Stamped/carved into the iron.

Around the nice raised rim as well! It has a very nice patina, and looks to have been well cared for.

Maybe the turtle is supposed to be sunning on a rock or something?

I love it. Great get

Mark G

[cspage]

Mark, everything actually could be just fine. I'd considered the turtle may be sitting in a mud puddle or some such, but I just thought I'd put it out there to see if anyone has anything to say. The sukashi just seems a bit alien to the rest of the tsuba and that is mostly a point of the feel of it in hand, unfortunately. Can't adequately convey that in posts. The visual design is dandy, no doubt about it. I will post some closeups tomorrow and maybe there will be something in them, maybe not.

 

Colin

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Colin,

 

An interesting and appealing guard here... To my eye, the tsuba does appear to be a 19th-century "homage to Nobuiye," but with a curious nod to Yamakichibei work, too: the sukashi turtle is reminiscent in style and placement of the sukashi designs of a late-Momoyama/early-Edo Yamakichibei tsubako. Not the peculiar "surround" in the area around the sukashi, but the sukashi work itself. It also seems as though the tsuba has been treated using yakite-shitate, which the Yamakichibei were well known for employing. Of course, the treatment of the rest of the tsuba recalls a famous Nobuiye design (the tortoise-shell bori), including its being interrupted and then continued elsewhere on the guard, including up onto the mimi. The metal doesn't look to be of the quality that would be associated with either Nobuiye or Yamakichibei, and the mei doesn't appear to me to fit into the ga-mei or futoji-mei groupings of Nobuiye mei as recognized by various scholars, but I could easily be wrong about these doubts... ;o) especially since I don't have the guard in hand.

 

Anyway, it's an appealing tsuba, Colin, as I said. Thanks for posting it for us to see. )

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Marius]

Sounds pretty harsh, Mariusck. I'm not sure if there's irony in your comment or not. Not that I'm complaining. I'm just learning and any new info is helpful. As I said, I have no expectations of this tsuba. I do know the signature is not really clear and powerful, but closeup pics will be helpful and will probably be definitive, one way or the other. I did not buy the tsuba because of the signature, anyway, and I didn't pay much. I am considering this as just paying tuition for a class in the subject, a very specific subject. I'm happy, no matter the verdict.

 

Colin

 

Colin, not at all. No harshness, no irony. Just telling you what experts very often do when looking at a sowrd or kodogu. By expert I mean someone who has such a knowledge of the authentic mei, that he can determine if the one he looks at, is genuine. In the eyes of a Japanese (and many a Western) connoisseur, whatever is gimei is a no go, regardless of the artistic the merit of the piece. Hence, once the mei is determined to be false, the object is of no further interest.

 

Nothing I can say about the mei on your tsuba - I am an amateur, not an expert. I can't say it is shinmei or gimei. I can only say (and I have said so earlier) that I like this tsuba and that the turtle sukashi looks OK to me. Also, that the chance is high that this is a revival piece in the style of Nobuiye. Can't see anything harsh or ironic about it. Possibly a misunderstanding?

[cspage]

Mariusz, I apologize if I sounded miffed, it was certainly not intentional. It’s always hard to gauge tone from text and I want to assure you that I am not at all vexed or otherwise out of sorts. I should probably use the smilies more. I certainly appreciate all comments and observations. That’s why I’m here.

Pete, here is a close-up of the mei.

Also pics of the sukashi turtle and indications of the areas that had me puzzled. Steve probably addressed all these issues, but since I’m so young in learning, all that terminology is lost on me…”yakite-shitate,” “ga-mei,” ‘futoji-mei.” And I guess I’m going to have to research the Yamakichibei. In any case, here are more pics and any elicitation on what’s there is welcome. Thank you all for your interest.

Colin

[Pete Klein]

Thanks much Colin. This is an interesting piece although not a 'genuine' Nobuie (for whatever that is worth). The mei has several problems with it but to spare you a bunch of dribble if you look at the uppermost down stroke of both nobu and ie they are struck from the right top to left bottom and they should go from right bottom to left top. (Unfortunately I don't have a scanner at present so I can't post an example). The mei is not in line with those of the Owari, Akasaka, Echizen etc. Nobuie Schools either so let's just say this is a neat little example of independent work. Looking at the sekigane you can see that this has been re-fitted at least twice and not recently. The original sizing would not require sekigane aside possibly from the hitsuana to act as a buffer for the kozuka to prevent wear. i'm not certain of the composition of the insert to the hitsuana but it looks to be copper. The first re-fit was apparently done with silver and the second with copper only to the mune side (which lost any silver there if there ever was any), the color of which has an older patina (you can ask Ted Tenold about my feeling for this attribute LOL)... The use of silver would tend to indicate that this was a favored item as copper would normally be utilized as being less expensive. I get the feeling that there is either a wax or lacquer coating on the tsuba as there is a sheen coating the mei and surface which I believe is in addition to the yakite shitate finish. BTW, yakite shitate is the process of re-heating the tsuba after carving to near melted which brings out tekotsu 'bones' and causes the surface to have a melted, waxy look. It was also used in Kanayama tsuba, Yamakichi (bei) tsuba and others. As for the turtle sukashi that is a puzzler, what? I have to wonder if it is original or added later? Difficult to say, but what I find interesting is that it seems the maker ran into an air picket in one area. Also, the area around the sukashi has been pounded flat as well as other areas. This was sometimes seen on Yamakichi (bei) work also and together with the yakite shitate finish lends the look of that school noted in other posts. When the sukashi was opened it would naturally raise the surrounding metal which would be flattened down again. This is also an indication that it was done at an earlier time, possibly at time of original fabrication, as the sukashi was formed by chisel rather than saw which would have been used into the Edo jidai. What originally got me going was the shape of the moka lobes as they are very close to genuine Nobuie work. However, there is a problem with the shape of the 'turtle shell' carving which is unlike genuine work which have a design in the center of the hexagon comprised of six dots. The use of kebori onto the mimi (rim) is another characteristic of Nobuie workmanship but is usually done much finer to my observations. All in all it's a pretty cool piece!

[cspage]

Thank you, Pete! That was extremely helpful and exactly the kind of information that makes all this so damn interesting. Just imagining the tsuba maker bringing all that into play in fabricating the tsuba. Very impressive. Thanks for the explanations and definitions, these are so helpful when source material is not as handy as one would desire on these subjects. And thanks to Steve also, as I have just done a quickie run around the internet on Yamakichibei - the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston had a few and the treatment on a couple did have some similarities to the area around the turtle sukashi. The amount of info in this string is enough to keep me very happy for some time.

 

...but don't let that stop anyone from adding to it!

 

I'm very appreciative.

 

Colin

[k morita]

Hi, :D

 

A copy of Nobuiye-tsuba by Norisuke(Owari) was recorded in the book that I had bought recently.

[Ford Hallam]

Colin,

 

In my opinion I think there is sufficient visual evidence in the close up images to draw the conclusion this is a cast copy.

 

Sorry for being the "bad cop" but the evidence is there and it's quite clear.

 

The first clue is to be seen alongside the mei. Those tiny grains on the steel surface are incontrovertible proof this steel was cast in to a plaster mould. These tiny bubbles are caused by minute air pockets in the surface of the plaster that forms the mould. It's a common feature of cast metal. There is no other metalworking process that results in anything similar.

 

While we're about it I'd like to publicly state, in writing , that I don't believe in a process called "yaki-shitate" at all. I don't know who came up with this fanciful notion but it strikes me a extremely improbable and more the result of the fanciful imagining of an armchair "expert" who'd never worked hot steel. I may be wrong, it has happened before :? ....but steel at temperatures close to melting (in fact the surface is suppose to melt in this theoretical process) absolutely does not act like wax and result in a soft and gentle surface...quite the opposite in fact. Ask any swordsmith.

 

Regards,

 

Ford

 

P.S. Come to think of it, this "yaki-shitate" idea may have come to the attention of western collectors via "Tsuba - An aesthetic Study". It may be that the term was intended merely to describe a visual feature (like karasugane implies shakudo looks like a crow or chirimen-ji merely looks like crepe silk) as the actual techniques followed to produce this look remain unknown...to most

 

This is a close up of the surface of a genuine Nobuie. This is clearly not a surface that has been melted in any way. I'd also just like to point out that Nobuie didn't use kebori in creating his designs. No metal was cut away which is what kiri means, "to cut". These little "steps" you can see very clearly in the lines here are indicative of a punching technique where the metal is merely displaced. This technique is called giri-bori. I raised this point previously,here. and go into a bit more detail.

 

 

 

You can examine some more examples here.

[Steve Waszak]

Good eye, there, Ford... Just for clarification, what you're referring to here with this tsuba of Colin's are the very tiny "grains" of metal around the mei area, right? I'd just like to be able to recognize a clear demarcation between the "bubble evidence" on the one hand, and the various other surface features on the plate of a forged tsuba. At times, especially with some of the more "worked over" pieces, the variety of gouges, hammer marks, sundry bori, divots, dents, and digs can be a bit perplexing when it comes to grasping how a particular piece was made or finished.

 

Your views on yakite shitate are quite intriguing. I must admit, I've always wondered about this process and the effects it was supposedly achieving. Your speculation that it is actually a descriptive term, rather than one accurately referencing a process, certainly is plausible. I am inclined to agree with you here, though I remain very curious as to how, exactly, the makers of Yamakichibei and Kanayama tsuba realized those melted surface effects in their works.

 

I've attached photos here of a Yamakichibei tsuba. Apologies for the mediocre photos, but I'm wondering what you think of the surface treatment of this guard. In particular, the area just below and to the right of the katakana "e" character (the rough, bumpy area). I find it interesting that this part of the tsuba's surface contrasts with the relative smoothness of the rest of the surface area. What process do you suppose was employed to realize this effect? Also, as is rather well knows as concerns Yamakichibei tsuba, the mei is often faintly present as opposed to the signatures of most other makers. Some explain these "faded mei" as a by-product of the yakite-shitate process... Anyway, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about the working of the surface of this tsuba...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[cspage]

I apologize for putting off my thanks for Morita san’s post and for Ford’s post, it was just to keep Ford’s name out there on the index, hoping it would attract some further discussion (which it did), kind of like putting the word “manufacture” in my subject to lure him to the post in the first place.

Ford and all, this is exactly what I was looking for. I don't consider Ford a "bad cop," just a straight up teacher. Now I have spent a little money (and I mean little) to learn a valuable lesson that will feed me a lifetime (is that a mixed metaphor?). Even if there's dispute over Ford's "incontrovertible proof," I will always be looking for those little bubble granules if there's a similar question about a tsuba and will take mention of yaki-shitate as a process with a grain of salt. How else does one learn this stuff without actually getting into metalworking? Again, thank you all, you guys are the best.

Now, if this is a cast tsuba, and therefore less than desirable, why the attention to the shakudo sekigane in the kozuka ana and the silver in the nakago ana? Ploys to attract a healthy purchase price? Or was someone back in the 19th century really enamored of this tsuba none-the-less and felt it had merit? Or something else? Speculation welcome.

 

Colin

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Steve,

 

yes, those tiny grains to the right and above the mei are what I'm referring to.

 

I'd also suggest the unusual surface around the turtle piercing is possibly due to the plaster of the mould braking away and creating, in effect, a scab on the cast object. This braking down of the mould around the sukashi would also explain the need to hammer the openings closed and to reshape them somewhat. The hammer marks are quite clear.

 

As for the way the original works were finished I have to confess I can't say for sure what was done but I can rule out certain processes as their effects are quite distinct.

 

As I see this finish now (my views are very much a "work in progress" as I develop my own approaches and see more) I recognise a carefully hammered ground that has also been softened by use of controlled oxidising. By this I mean a process of heating the steel to form a iron oxide, scale layer. This is then removed by means of a suitable acid that only really affects the scale and leaves the underlying steel untouched. This procedure can be repeated any number of times. This results in a particular, natural sort of skin that is called "hatasu" in some studios I've studied in.

 

Another, very significant feature of this sort of controlled oxidisation is that differing steel compositions (the carbon content being a main factor) are consumed at different rates. Contrary to general perception, higher carbon content steel is more readily corroded than the low carbon steel. This fact has a serious implication with regard to the formation and interpretation of tekkotsu also.

 

The smoothed and rounded appearance of certain guards (Hoan, Yamakichibei et al) could, in my opinion, be quite reasonably be explained as being the result of careful filing, polishing with small stones and burnishing. My feeling is that this sort of finish was something that these makers developed gradually and is the result of a number of steps that are all very much a matter of the maker gently working the surface to create the sort of expressive "skin" they felt appropriate.

 

Incidentally, this is also why I am doubtful of various claims as to the apparent qualities of steel merely from visual observations.

 

Hi Colin,

 

I went into some detail elsewhere on the forum about the procedures for making cast steel copies. You'll find the entertaining "debate" here.

 

The implication I make is that if it's cast steel its modern, ie; probably no older than 50 years but more likely 5 years to be blunt. The addition of the sekigane( in different metals, albeit with a very fresh copper patina) and the lining to the kozuka hitsu are merely evidence of the increasing sophistication of fakers. If I can do it then so can they...although, obviously you'd never know if I did it

 

regards,

 

ford

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Ford,

 

Many thanks for your excellent insights here. Very clearly explained. Much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Marius]

 

Incidentally, this is also why I am doubtful of various claims as to the apparent qualities of steel merely from visual observations.

 

Dear Ford,

 

you don't even suppose how much your "contrarian" opinion is appreciated by some people here. We tend to accept various statements as a dogma.. Hence, it is very refreshing to hear from someone who is an artist actually working in metal, that melting the surface of a tsuba in order to achieve a glazed surface is actually impossible and that "yakite-shitate" could be originally a description of the effects and not of the process...

 

I would also like to dwell on your statement about the quality of steel. I have always wondered, how one can determine the quality of steel in a tsuba without serious metallurgical examination? Obviously, we can see whether the tsuba is carefully crafted, what the colour of patina is, if the composition of all elements is pleasant (a subjective issue), but steel quality? Understood as resilience, hardness, as what?

 

I think your opinions in this post are a very valuable contribution to the dismantling of some myths, from which - in my humble opinion - the study of nihonto and its mountings suffer.

[cspage]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I just came across another "Nobuiye" tsuba with similar characteristics as the one that started this string. http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/TU10029.html The hexagonal designs are similar, the signature and melty look to it are similar...AND there are the telltale little bubble nodules that are so similar to my tsuba. I make no conclusions about the site owners at all. Just applying new information.

 

Colin

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Mariuszk

 

thank you for your welcome words of support. As you point out, this field of study (tosogu) is awash with odd assumptions and improbable "explanations". In a way this is to be expected because in reality this study is very much in it's early days.

 

We don't have a well established approach to assessing new ideas or theories in this field. If someone writes an original article it is rarely subject to critical scrutiny for fear of seeming mean or perhaps even appearing ungrateful to the author for their efforts.

 

Your reflections on the matter of assessing various material qualities of steel by touch and sight alone point to one area that is seemingly built on "observations" and intuitions that have never been subject to any sort of verification. That a particular visual feature indicates a particular property, or quality, is simply an agreed upon convention...or dogma even. I think it very misleading to even try to infer material facts from such speculations.

 

To my knowledge there has yet not been any scientific analysis of actual steel and iron composition nor any hardness tests carried out on tsuba so we certainly have no comprehensive proven data on which to base many of our speculations.

 

I know Prof. Gowland and Roberts-Austin made various analysis' around the turn of the 19th cent but the piece were all essentially pure iron and the hardnesses predictable quite low. In any case, I've only located reference to 4 or 5 pieces they tested.

 

Hello Colin,

 

not a dead horse at all :? . I'm sorry to say that this sort of "copy" is becoming increasingly common. I frequently play "spot the fake"....or more kindly, "spot the mis-identified tsuba" on any number of on-line sites. The other area that seems to catch people out very frequently is modern work made by Japanese amateurs. Tsuba making has been a popular hobby for many years so it's inevitable that many of these pieces will find their way on to the market, especially the Western, internet based market.

 

regards all,

 

ford

[Marc BROQUIN]

Hello :D ,

 

Just a little remark about the decorated mimi .

 

I own a tsuba with this design of multiple hexagons made by an UMETADA signing with a gold flower for UME, possibly UMETADA MASAHIDE . He was frequently doing the same work with such a decorated mimi, kind of extension of the design upon the mimi.

 

True Nobuiye bear sometimes this particularity.

 

About the turtle, it looks like somebody added it by carving and not inserting) afterwards and did the patination again. This could have created this flat surface which differs in patination.

 

This type of patina could be a mixture of firing such as YAGYU tsuba and etching with acidic solutions. Any comment about this assertion is welcome.

 

About the signature, IMO it doesn't look like original one I have seen but nobody's perfect...

 

Friendly :D

Marc