What does "Western influence" mean to you?

[sanjuro]

May I suggest that in this search for the quintissential Japanese aesthetic and art form we confine our discussion for the immediate term to firstly Tosogu which was if I recall the original intent. Secondly to a period earlier than The Edo period.

It would seem that the origination of a indiginous Japanese form of artistic expression predated The Edo Period. In fact if I read correctly, possibly the Heike Monogatari may be an expression of a truly Japanese art form (would this be correct?) This would place a western influence free date much earlier than most of us had previously suspected.

For those like myself who are not well versed and erudite in these various forms of artistic expression and their derivation, it would be useful to place a date and possibly an example, upon the end of indigenous Japanese art and the beginning of Japanese art that was influenced by the West. If such a demarkation is possible?

 

This is one of those discussions that has such wide ranging ramifications and aspects that I think we may need to take it in bite sized pieces in order to make sense of it.

 

Thank God we have finally found a way to have this discussion without personalities getting in the way. Let's keep it going guys because this is what a forum is really about.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Keith,

 

I would tend to agree with about keeping our discussion focussed specifically on tosogu and while it's probably a good idea to start our exploration at the beginning, so to speak, I feel that trying to impose artificial boundaries may prove awkward.

 

In many ways the whole history of Japanese art is one of continual absorption and synthesis. We started our discussion by trying to identify Bakumatsu period, Western influence but it becomes clear that Japanese artists had already learnt most of those "tricks" by then. I think that we may gain a better, overall picture by slowly working our way through history and looking at what sorts of aesthetic expressions came to the fore at specific times and where they may have come from and I think that at this point to try and stick to the East/West divide may only result in a distorted picture of the artistic evolution we're trying to understand.

 

Sorry if I seem to contradiction my initial suggestions.... It's just the way the discussion has developed that makes me feel we may make more headway by simply taking "a grand tour".

[sanjuro]

Ford.

 

Thats fine with me...... and as you say, the discussion has already developed a persona of wide consideration. Rules and boundaries imposed now may actually stifle the discussion rather than encourage it.

What interests me, and I confess to having little appreciation of it, is when these western influences, no matter how subtle or how well integrated, first started to appear in the indiginous Japanese arts. There are no references readily available from which I can identify the origin of western influence/aesthetics particularly in tosogu. The more overt examples are all Edo and perhaps some hints here and there in Momoyama pieces. One would expect that it may have been earlier in the other arts and only began to surface in tosogu when the Kanagushi had more freedom of expression. Is this in fact the case, or are there earlier perhaps more subtle instances that are not so easily spotted?

[Ford Hallam]

Keith,

 

I don't know of any over-view study that does explore what we're attempting to do here. I've no idea what we'll be able to discern but I do think that by looking close enough we stand a good chance of picking out significant traits.

 

To this end I'm drawing up (with images of representative pieces) a list of tsuba from all periods that illustrate specific aesthetic expressions. By identifying these varieties and exploring their origins and development it may be possible to gain a better idea of the evolution of this thing we call "Japanese aesthetics"...and I'm sure John L would be glad to see that :D ...as would I.

 

Of course this list is only my take on it and others may demand the inclusion of their favourite schools etc but it's worth a go, I reckon and I'll offer my reasoning for the examples I'm offering for discussion. I'll get it on-line by tomorrow at the latest.

 

regards,

 

ford

[george trotter]

I don't think I can contribute much here as my knowledge of tosogu is very sketchy ...I may have to include non-tosogu to make a point. Also my library on this subject is almost non-existant, so I will mostly read and learn. May I make one (I hope) helpfull contribution in terms of an "entry" date for western influence...for me it seems reasonable to focus this point to the Sengoku Jidai. We know that the effective date for western penetration into Japan was 1542...at Tanegashima. Firearms, Christianity, western dress, technology, languages, literature and various types of trade commodities, INCLUDING fish/vegetables deep-fried in batter...(yes, tempura is originally Portuguese) entered Japan from this date. Within a century the appearance of the Japanese concept of "western-ness" is evident in namban tosogu and nambantetsu in swords. I suppose it is true to say that in much of it, a grotesque distortion (depending on one's taste) of what they were

"copying/influnced by" is evident, eg the tsuba imitating baroque western small-sword guards. Again...I am not sure whether these things are "western influence" or Japanese attempts at copying western art. I offer this time zone as a possible demarcation point to begin from...I am happy for more knowledgeable people to make adjustment or offer alternatives.

BTW Ford, I thank you for your analysis of the horse dai-sho tsuba...I too think these are worthy of respect as examples of Japaneseness in aesthetic and execution. I am pleased they have remained a pair as the charm of the concept and the "cheekiness" of the artist would be diminished by their separation.

Regards,

George.

[george trotter]

It occurs to me that perhaps I should clarify what I mean by "western influence" as opposed to "copying/depicting" western art/objects.

In Japanese ukiyoe, it is well known that westerners and western objects were depicted. It is equally well known that the ukiyoe artists had a unrealistic grasp of perspective, often being able to show the back of a subject as well as the front (eg Shunga). In time, as the western contact continued, while the artists continued to depict their usual scenes in their unique Japanese style, a slow but steady correction to perspective becomes apparent...obviously learned from the west.

Thus, I say that the depiction of a westerner/western object is just that, western "stuff" copied/depicted in Japanese art (like Craig's Kodzuka of Bow/banner etc), the subtle change/correction to perspective in Japanese art is sign of what we are calling "western influence". In other words "influence" is subtle and unheralded, while depiction/copying is just that, a blatant depiction/copying of a western object etc. IMHO.

Regards,

George.

[george trotter]

Hi all...is there anybody out there...?

I hope I haven't said something to mess up this discussion have I?

Regards to all,

George.

[sanjuro]

George.

 

I think we all hang breathlessly on Ford's next post where he promised to reveal some examples for us to peruse in furtherance of this esteemed subject. A small lull allows the anticipation to rise, and Ford is a past master of the theatrical. Indulge him a short time, then we'll send out search parties.

[Ford Hallam]

Hello Chaps,

 

apologies for the delay...I've drawn up my list and sourced suitable images ( 17 different styles so far). I now need to scan them all in, resize and upload here. It will be quite dramatic and theatrical....I promise :D ...but I do have pressing matters to attend to in the studio today so I'll get the uploads going this evening.

 

Actually, I don't think a visual, aesthetic picture like this has ever been attempted before so I'm hopeful it will be a useful "road map".

[george trotter]

Oh...well that's alright then :-)

George

[Curgan]

Ford besides an exceptional artist is a socratic philosopher. His knowledge on the subject is comparable to few others. He has his point and will lead us to it, making us believe we have discovered it, instead of presenting it to us.

 

As the least in the classroom, I wait in anticipation to hear from the teacher and the advanced students...

[Curran]

I've been hanging back on this discussion, not sure where and if I could add value.

Those who know me can depend on me to always harp this:

 

I owned this namban for years. Wish i still did, but sold it out of economic necessity.

I've been to Macau and seen the Plataresque church there, then I was in Salamanca in 2002 with the wife. Seeing the Plataresque style there and in Seville connected the dots for me.

 

Animal anthropomorphic figures of western perspective often engraved into spanish and portugese chuch, then they started to show up in Namban tsuba. Didn't much get past tsuba thought, after they knocked down the few Platearesque churches in Japan.

 

Curran

(no relation to Curgan that I am aware of yet)

[Ford Hallam]

After some rumination and juggling here a selection of tsuba and a few early koshirae that may provide an overview of the main aesthetics seen in tosogu. I've tried to select examples that, to my eye at least, illustrate differing aesthetic expressions. I would point out though that it's very rare that any given work will express only one type of aesthetic. It may help to consider the varieties of aesthetic expression as musical notes and individual works of art being composed ( pun intended) of a selection, to work in harmony or in contrast.

 

I've not attempted to provide a complete picture of all the major schools and artists but only concentrated on the developing artistic styles. If I've left out one of your favourites, please forgive me. Perhaps that particular style of aesthetic is already represented here.

 

If you want to study larger images of these examples you can find them here, in my Picasa gallery.

 

The varieties of aesthetic expression as displayed in Tosogu

 

Kofun Period. Circa 650AD

 

 

Heian Period. 11 Cent. ( this is actually a 17th cent reproduction but it'll do)

 

 

Ko-Tosho. circa 1250

 

 

Ko-Tosho. circa 1400

 

 

Ezo Koshirae. 15th Cent.

[Ford Hallam]

part II...

 

Ko-kinko. circa 1400.

 

 

Onin tsuba ( named after the period ) 1467 ~ 1477

 

 

Ko-Mino. circa 1525

 

 

Nobuie 1485~1564

 

 

Kanie of Fushimi. 1514 ~ 1573

 

 

Owari. circa 1575.

[Ford Hallam]

part III...

 

Umetada Myoju. 1558 ~ 1631.

 

 

Goto Teijo. 1603 ~ 1673

 

 

Higo: Hirata Hikozo. circa 1620.

 

 

Higo: Shimizu Jingu. Circa 1660.

[Ford Hallam]

part IV...I may need some correction on the following 2 dates...John L, any suggestions please.

 

Namban. second half of the seventeenth century Circa 1675... ish!

 

 

Tsuchiya Yasuchika. 1670~1744.

 

 

Murakami Jochiku. circa 1750.

 

 

Akasaka. Mid Edo period. Circa 1700~1750

 

 

Hizen. circa 1750

[Ford Hallam]

Part V...

 

Omori school. 1730~1798

 

 

Mitsuoki Otsuki. 1766~1834.

 

 

Ishiguro Masayoshi. 1775~1862

 

 

Funada Ikkin. 1812~1863.

 

 

Araki Tomei. 1817~1870.

[Ford Hallam]

last one....for now.

 

Unno Shomin. 1844~1915.

[george trotter]

Hi Ford,

well here it is a beautiful autumn afternoon, and I think I will plunge in to the dreaded lake of artistic influence. At my dismal level of artistic knowledge (or should I say lack of...), I can only say that any person in a position to look through this sequence of depictions and pick out any outside influence, let alone "western" influence must have a VERY broad knowledge of world art.

May I (in my plebian way) start the ball rolling by saying, that "to me", the majority look to be native Japanese aesthetic. Out of these I would classify the following as containing some "visible" reference from outside Japan:

fig 0011 "mountain and fisherman...China/Daoist. this is problem for me...is it influence or "borrowing/copying".

Myoju fig 0014 "oakleaves etc in Sumi-e"...poss Chinese as the originator of Sumi-e...again, influence or borrowing?

Namban 0019 "quasi-baroque Euro swordguard"...clearly evincing to me a borrowing from west...therefore, not really? "influence" but borrowing.

Mitsuoki otsuki jpg "bridge and moon"...the most subtly evincing of "influence" (not a blatant borrowing)...in this case, a technically correct western perspective in length/depth, breadth and height.

This is just me rising (or falling) to my level of expertise on Japanese/world art.

regards,

George.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi George,

 

your observations are spot on with regard to the influences you've noted, although I'm not sure Myoju is too reliant on the Chinese for his particular design sense. We'll no doubt get into that as we proceed.

 

I'd also suggest that we try to identify those aspects that are generally considered to be "quintessentially Japanese". Things like;

wabi, rustic, "as is", celebration of natural irregularity and accidental/incidental evidence of process

sabi, originally meaning "chill", "lean" or "withered" now more "gentle patina of age" etc.

yugen; subtle profundity

mujō; impermanence

iki; stylish elegance

karei; gorgeousness

shibui; astringency

miyabi; courtly refinement and elegance

Fukinsei; asymmetry, irregularity

Kanso; "less is more", restraint

Koko; weathered as distinct from sabi

Shizen; unpretentious, the original nature of things

Datsuzoku; unconventional, avant garde, original

Seijaku; calming tranquillity.

Asobi; playfulness

 

By looking more closely at these aspects we may begin to gain a clearer conception of what Japanese aesthetics really look like and what qualities were appreciated then, and now.

[george trotter]

Hi Ford,

if I may squeeze the last drop out of my two cents worth...can I just make a comment on my perceptions of Japaneseness in art. I think (not being trained) that i am referring to your classifications "Yugen" subtle profundity and "Mujo" impermanence.

 

I once passed up the chance to buy a very simple tsuba that had a a couple of what I presumed to be Japanese stone grave? markers on it...or at least temple markers. On a few of the level flat parts of this little moss covered monument were small pebbles carefully piled on top of each other...some had fallen over and were scattered around. It was not til years later that I noticed, while walking walking in shrine areas, the very same thing; the little pebbles piled on top of each other, and also fallen over and scattered by wind and snow. I discovered that these are left by casual "strollers by", not necessarily related, who just feel the need to mark their connection to the concept of death, ancestors, themselves and the transience of life. Clearly, the standing pebbles are a metaphor for the living (connected in sprit to the dead) and the fallen/scattered pebbles are a metaphor for those who have left this life and joined the dead. I find this concept touching, sad,yet strangely affirmative of life. I sure wish I had bought that tsuba.

As a gaijin, I may be totally wrong in my interpretation of the pebbles' meaning, but I "think" this interpretation I give it (and the tsuba maker gave it) is Yugen/Mujo?

regards,

George.

[Ford Hallam]

There you go, George. You're seeing the tsuba through a filter of Japanese aesthetics :D . We don't know what the artists intended but we do know these various sensibilities inform the overall Artistic tradition. If that's what you perceive then you've applied this bit of insight in appreciating this particular work.

 

In the case of your tsuba the theme; ie; the stone stupa and scattered pebbles, expresses a particular pair of aesthetic concerns, Yugen/Mujo. What we can do further is asses how the actual work is carried out. Does the style of workmanship tell us anything? Does the technical treatment provide any further clues as to the sensibilities of the maker?

 

Nobuie, Hirata Hikozo, Goto....all very different expressions in terms of workmanship. What do these aspects tell us about the aesthetic leanings of the artists?

 

Anyone else out there?...or are you all going to leave it to George and I to figure out on our own .

[Steve Waszak]

Greetings Ford, Keith, George, at al... )

 

Terrific thread. Many thanks for kicking this one off, Ford. Things for me are in a bit of flux just now (I've just relocated across country, for the second time in eight months...), so I don't have time at the moment to join you all in this very intriguing line of inquiry.

 

Your list of aesthetic terms is a really good one, Ford. I might add the Japanese concept of mono no aware, which I have heard translated as "the pathos of things."

 

How about we try to "find" one or more of the aesthetic concepts you list here, Ford, in and among the various pieces featured in the reference photos you kindly provide? I think it would be interesting and educational for us all to look for these concepts as manifest in this tsuba or that one among the group presented in your reference photos. The tsuba George mentions here---where yugen and mujo may be said to be exemplified---is a great start, but we can't actually see this guard. I look forward to seeing how we all do in trying to locate these various concepts in the tsuba illustrated in this thread.

 

Also, Ford, your point regarding attempting to see these aesthetic qualities not only in the subject/motif, but also in the material, treatment, design, etc... is a REALLY good one. A crucially important one, actually. For we often will see a subject depicted in many various tsuba, but the WAY it is depicted is where aesthetic sensibilities become truly manifest, no? And this is, after all, what I think got this thread started. :D

 

While we're at it, we might try, too, to distinguish, if we can, between, for instance, shibui and kanso, or between koko and sabi, and so on. I think that, for many of us, attempting to discern whether a certain tsuba presents koko or sabi (but not both), presents something of a challenge...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Steve,

 

good to hear from you. I was hoping you'd join in...despite how busy you evidently are you probably won't be able to stop yourself 'cos we'll be having so much fun

 

I considered "mono no aware"...or simply "Aware"...that visceral feeling (almost of shock) that great art elicits but decided that while an object can cause that feeling in us I wasn't sure it was something an artist could deliberately attain....not sure

 

Your suggestion to "find" the various expressions in the examples I've show is precisely what I was hoping for. You noted that I included a few terms that are very close but are in fact subtly different (wabi/koko)

I think this may help to introduce the real nuance these terms express.

 

Also, Ford, your point regarding attempting to see these aesthetic qualities not only in the subject/motif, but also in the material, treatment, design, etc... is a REALLY good one. A crucially important one, actually. For we often will see a subject depicted in many various tsuba, but the WAY it is depicted is where aesthetic sensibilities become truly manifest, no?

 

Absolutely, as someone working in this medium this is for me the most important aspect. The subject matter, for me, is not that relevant at all. I choose my subjects because they allow me to explore essentially abstract qualities...but that's just me :D However, the appreciation of these material qualities is often more important to many Japanese connoisseurs also.

 

well...I think we're off to a good start

 

regards,

 

ford

[b.hennick]

Hi Ford: (I tried to send you a PM but your email address is no longer available.)

 

Thanks for starting the thread on Japanese Aesthetic and Western influence. I am enjoying it a great deal. I just spent a bit of time copying the images of the tsuba that you posted. I managed to make it into 7 pages of information. With your permission I will upload the file to yousendit.com and post the addess in case anyone wants to keep a record of the images on their computer or print the images out.

 

My lack of formal training in art limits my ability to contribute to the thread. OTH I have studied swords and fitting for decades and know what I like and what I enjoy.

 

I was a little disappointed to not see Natsuo's work. Your earlier thread on his work convinced me to buy a book on Natsuo that I continue to enjoy.

 

I think that people must realise that Western influence or other influence does not dimish the art. Good art is good art.

 

I also think that we need a Ford Hallam tsuba at the end of the images so that people can see the Japanese aesthetic continue...

 

Thanks again!

Barry

[george trotter]

What a great discussion...yes, a pity I don't have a pic of the "pebbles" tsuba to illustrate my comments; it was 30 years ago and there was no such thing as a phone camera...I might add one thing that I've just remembered which might reflect Steve's "mono no aware" (the pathos of things)...that is that the stone marker on the tsuba cast a shadow...perhaps the setting sun? I suppose this might reflect the "passing of time" and "the transience of life"....mujo/aware...?

Regards,

George.

Would it be good if members could also post a pic of an item they have/know about which illustrates one of the meanings in Ford's list of themes in Japanese art?....it would be interesting also if one of these themes was found to have been transferred into an item depicting a "western" theme/influence/object.

[george trotter]

Oops, again I have no pic...but I remember a perfect illustration of "asobi" (playfulness) in a pair of menuki...on one side (facing toward the kashira) was a fox wearing a conical straw hat and a grass raincoat. He was poling a raft furiously up a river and looking earnestly forward. On the other side (facing towards the fuchi), dressed identically, also poling a raft furiously up the river was a rabbit...only he was looking back over his shoulder (at the kashira...at the fox chasing him!)...it was fantastic. It was not related to the rest of the fittings so must have been made on a whim, and, like the horse/hoofprints tsubas was a delight, but would be nothing if separated. Sorry to rave on, but this thread is full of possibilities...I'll be quiet now I promise.

Geo.

[Mark Green]

Here you go Barry,

 

My Iki/Seijaku, Ford Hallam tsuba.

 

Maybe we should call this one, Japanese influence on one from the west.

[docliss]

Firstly, may I compliment Ford on his careful selection of images for posting? Each is an ideal example of the school/period that it represents, and even I begin to see where the discussion on aesthetics is leading. But I still dislike the term ‘Japanese aesthetics’. It is the art that is Japanese; the aesthetics are personal, and mine alone, even if they have been given neat, Japanese labels.

 

In reply to his query regarding the dating of the two tsuba in part IV, I am somewhat surprised by the 1600-1640 period given to the Hizen tsuba. It is published on pp.46-7 of Graham Gemmell’s Tosōgu: Treasure of the Samurai, and is influenced by the Portuguese tooled leather that was indeed introduced into Japan in the seventeenth century. But I personally prefer GG’s dating of the mid-eighteenth century for the tsuba, and would like to hear Ford’s reasons for his earlier preference.

 

Ford obviously recognises that the dating of auriculate Namban tsuba is a hobby-horse of mine. Published on pp.50-1 of Syz’s Masterpieces from the Randolph B Caldwell Collection: Japanese Sword Fittings, this is a beautiful example of this fascinating group of tsuba, and bears the VOC logo of the Dutch East India Company. Japanese shinsa panels appear always to date these as Momoyama period, and this I take issue with.

 

These tsuba are said to be based upon the style of Iberian sword guards. But the swords that were introduced into Japan during the Momoyama period were rapiers, with their increasingly elaborate hilts, and the absence of any solid, discoid guard. This is evidenced by the reproduction of these curlique guards on Japanese six-fold screens of the period. The small sword, used purely for thrusting and furnished with a discoid counter-guard, had gradually evolved as a replacement for the rapier by the third decade of the seventeenth century. It is probably this later counter-guard, consisting of simple elliptical plates or of two conjoined shells, that influenced the development of the auriculate guard.

 

Two additional features on these guards add to the doubts regarding their Momoyama dating:

• The presence of a diminutive, kebori VOC logo on the seppadai of some of these guards suggests that many of them were made by the Dutch East India Company. While this company had a presence in Japan from the early seventeenth century, its exclusive trading rights were not established until 1639, in the early Edo period.

• Many of these guards demonstrate a decorative feature identified as ‘swan-neck drawer handles’. It is not certain whether these are derived from European swan-neck furniture handles, or are a later, abstract interpretation of the mokkō design. But these handles do not feature in Western brass trade catalogues until the 1730-80s — well into the late Edo period.

 

I thus conclude that the auriculate sub-section of Namban guards should be dated as of the Edo rather than the Momoyama period.

 

John L.

[george trotter]

Hi John L,

While I can't comment on your analysis of the Namban guard/VOC manufacture in precise detail, (mainly because I am not sure of some of your terms)...I can comment on the VOC, being employed at the Western Australian Museum for 26 years and directly concerned in the study of the VOC (Vereenigde Oostindische Company), as we have one of the only recovered VOC shipwrecks in the world (1629).

The VOC did not come into official existence until c.1602-3, so your dating to after 1639 seems reasonable. Virtually all their trade goods from Europe were marked VOC, as were tools, weapons, company property and money. It is always possible that the VOC did have "Europen themed" Japanese tsuba made (as you say). IMHO they would be made in Japan and traded back to Europe, but I have never heard of them. Your comment on the tiny VOC logo stated that they are kebori...if put on by the Dutch they would be (in my experience) stamped, and certainly would not be" reversed" as shown here...is the pic in reverse?

I provide this information to assist the discussion.

Regards

George.