What does "Western influence" mean to you?

[Ford Hallam]

In a, perhaps foolhardy attempt to shed some further light on the topic I wonder if members would be prepared to define exactly what it is that, for them, defines something ( in this case tosogu) as exhibiting the oft cited "Western influence".

 

I'm not only trying to stir things up but seriously feel we need to explore exactly what is meant by this and if in fact it always holds up to closer examination.

 

I'd suggest also that we try to avoid the usual, broad sweeping generalisations and vague references to social and political changes etc but that we focus rather on specific points of design, composition and artistic treatment. There, I believe, we may begin to gain a clearer picture of what constitutes the "Japaneseness" of these artefacts (as perceived by us) and what traits seems incongruous or "foreign" to us.

[sanjuro]

OK Ford... I'll play this game, mostly because the subject interests me also. Please dont let us get into the rubbish that came from a previous thread on this subject.

This thread stems from my comment concerning the 'westernness' of a kozuka featuring a bow and arrow and a scroll with a mon if I'm not mistaken, and that being so, perhaps the subject will suffice here also.

This is not an easy impression to explain at all. It is not one thing such as execution but rather an overall syndrome of things that renders a design Western or Eastern in nature for me. A number of small elements in the design point west rather than east. Bearing in mind the level of detail in the design, the arrow has no binding either end of the fletching. Ergo it resembles more a modern arrow where the fletching is glued in place. The unstrung yumi still has a pronounced double recurve. This is a feature of western bows and mainland asian bows. An unstrung yumi in fact has quite a different less pronounced curve to it. The scroll or banner has a distinct western heraldic flow to the curves. Whilst the panel is a Goto style nanako panel with a gold design and a gold border, it does not have the quality of Goto and appears somewhat contrived to me. the design overall occupies much of the field and this is not generally in keeping with Japanese design, lacking the delicacy and smaller size of a more eastern treatment of the subject.

I think that just about gives you enough of my impression to pull to bits, and for the sake of discussion I dont mind at all if you do so. We may all learn something from any mistaken impressions that I may be guilty of.

[Marius]

In a, perhaps foolhardy attempt to shed some further light on the topic I wonder if members would be prepared to define exactly what it is that, for them, defines something ( in this case tosogu) as exhibiting the oft cited "Western influence".

 

I'm not only trying to stir things up but seriously feel we need to explore exactly what is meant by this and if in fact it always holds up to closer examination.

 

I'd suggest also that we try to avoid the usual, broad sweeping generalisations and vague references to social and political changes etc but that we focus rather on specific points of design, composition and artistic treatment. There, I believe, we may begin to gain a clearer picture of what constitutes the "Japaneseness" of these artefacts (as perceived by us) and what traits seems incongruous or "foreign" to us.

 

 

Ford,

 

let us first make clear - by Western you mean European influence only? Otherwise the discussion could be very broad, including China, Korea and possibly even India (through Buddhism).

[Mark Green]

I would think China, and Korea could be out. As these influences were many.

 

But everything else would be fun.

 

 

 

Mark G

[Ford Hallam]

Mariuszk

 

Yes, I think we'll make more progress and clarify things more helpfully if we try to keep to the notion of "Western" being specifically European and perhaps we can put the earlier Namban ( whoever the hell they were :D ) influence aside also.

 

Keith,

 

yup, it was your comment that prompted this topic...not to be confrontational but genuinely to explore the topic. I actually think there's quite a lot to discuss that may ultimately be quite helpful to us all.

[raven2]

I would think China, and Korea could be out. As these influences were many.

 

But everything else would be fun.

 

 

 

Mark G

 

Hi Mark,

 

Watch out, you may have to define the word fun. :D After some of the previous discussions on this topic.

[Mark Green]

I feel, everything I have ever read on this board to be FUN.

 

I don't get worried about people's internet writings. And, with a subject like this, there is no right or wrong.

 

Many people see the Western influence on Japanese art to be a 'Selling out' of the old ways.

Others, feel it was just a natural progression of the times.

Personaly, I think it may have been a bit of both.

One must remember, that Japan was a very closed society for hundreds of years. That one 'BIG' thing, would make it very likely that a western explosion would happen durring the late Edo period, when the country was opened up.

People are always curious, and artists are very much so.

While traditionalist, will mostly stick to 'the way', others, not so incline, would want to stray.

 

While I feel, most of the (so called by some) 'western influences' in sword arts, were tastefully done, some were not.

That may have been more to misunderstanding than anything else.

 

Just my thoughts to get it started. I need to look through my pics, and books for obvious examples.

mark G

[Curgan]

I expect a fun, educational and well debated thread as well!

 

As I was told as a child I listen and keep silent while the "grown ups" talk....

[raven2]

I expect a fun, educational and well debated thread as well!

 

As I was told as a child I listen and keep silent while the "grown ups" talk....

 

I certainly agree with you in that sentiment and I always look forward to the the knowledge that is imparted here. :D

[cspage]

I've only one thought to start with on this subject, and it's not terribly specific, but I think that composition of design may be one of the key points in trying to identify "Western Influence." I'm not in any way an expert on Japanese art, or, for that matter, well versed in it, but I do have a fairly good background in visual art and the principles of composition. My inclination is that features such as negative and positive space and the way they are treated could be a path to uncovering some sort of "aha" moment regarding influences. I'm not yet saying in what ways they are treated that would identify the differences, it may only be in the degree of treatment that may be the key. The treatment could be so subtle as to be easily disputed, and dispute is most likely. I do look forward to what comes out of this.

 

OK, next?

 

Colin

 

(this is like sticking a toe into the ocean to see how cold it is)

[sanjuro]

Lets face it..... The elements of a design and the way in which it is executed as well as the subject itself, combine to provide an overall effect. That effect can be interpreted in a number of ways by different individuals according to their preferences, socio economic background, experience and exposure to arts and crafts of different cultures. The combination among other things gives an Eastern (in this case Japanese), or Western feel to a piece. We stand on the brink here of personal interpretation of all these elements and influences and how they effect each of us on a personal level. I doubt there are two identical views within the population of the NMB, but if we share our interpretations then some commonality will surface. This is what I think Ford is aiming for in introducing this thread. (At least I hope that is what he is aiming for). There isnt much to be gained by opposition in this discussion. The past iterations of this subject I think have proved that in disagreement we lose sight of the purpose of a topic, not to mention ultimately the topic itself. In this case I feel that if If we all accept and respect our differences and look for that commonality, we are in great danger of learning something.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Keith,

 

absolutely right, we need to try and tease out some sort of commonalities in this topic. I think we are all aware of how Japanese art developed by absorbing foreign (mainly mainland Asian) trends and synthesised them to create something more indigenous. This process was of course most vigorous in the periods pre Edo. Then we have a relatively long period of isolation where the aesthetics we tend to see as most Japanese incubate and are refined.

 

Towards the very end of the period of isolation we then have a rather abrupt, fresh wave of foreign influence.

 

The way this late intrusion is handled may be seen to somewhat different when compared to the way outside influence was absorbed and internalised in earlier periods. By which I mean, unlike in the earlier periods where things evidently happened more slowly, allowing for a more unselfconscious assimilation, in the late 19th century things happened much faster and the entire social fabric was undergoing a serious upheaval.

 

In those, very unsettled, times it's not surprising that the absorption of new ideas was not as elegant as in those times when Japanese society was on a more firm footing and had a more sure sense of who it was in relation to the outside world. It's specifically this awkwardness that is sometimes seen that strikes me as being most reflective of attempts to incorporate the new "western" influences while at the same time losing a real grip on the past.

 

From what I can see, most of what is generally seen (in the West) as being most traditionally Japanese is in fact late Edo period aesthetic. All too often I feel the true variety and complexity of Japanese art is reduced to an overly simplified "tourist" impression and when something seems to be at odds with this image it's identified as being the result of Western influence, almost be default.

 

I also think we need to make a clear distinction between the actual material quality of the work (the effects of economics) and the response to new aesthetic ideas and attempts to appeal to a new market.

 

I'll be honest, in terms of aesthetic influence from the West, I don't really see that much. I think the West has been "blamed" unfairly, for too long, for the decline in so called " traditional Japanese aesthetics" and craft refinement. That the situation in Japan, at the time was exacerbated by the West forcing itself into the country is undeniable however, I think we make a mistake to see the effects of Western aesthetics at work somehow debasing indigenous ideas of beauty.

 

What this idea subtly suggests is that European art/craft at the time was so ugly that it infected Japanese art and ruined it. This view can only be held if one is completely ignorant of what European art is all about and if one holds a slightly biased opinion of the inherent superiority of Japanese art and design. I think Japanese art a the end of the Edo period had it's own problems to work out and the world of tosogu was unravelling anyway. The Samurai class and the Shogunate had completely lost the plot, so to speak...is it any wonder the tosogu makers ended up losing their way too?

 

So the view I'd like to explore is actually, how much real Western influence can we be sure of when we asses work from this late period or are we merely seeing the natural decline of an artistic tradition from within?

[moss]

Gidday Ford and all,

 

I doubt we have to worry too much about a decline in artistic tradition from within while artisans like yourself still create things of beauty.

Isn't art in all its mediums fluid anyway and influence from outside cultures can add good not just bad.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Cheers Moss

[docliss]

Dear Ford

 

In answer to your interesting question, I believe that a Western influence on Japanese tosōgu may be considered to manifest itself in three possible ways.

 

(a) The use of Western subject matter

• Christian motifs, including Ikenie tsuba and those incorporating the cross.

• Western objects, including Black Ships, figures in bizarre Western dress, and the inclusion of a VOC logo in the design.

• Random Western letters and numerals, as seen in the work of Hirado

Kunishige.

 

(b) The idiosyncratic depiction of Japanese subjects

• Many examples may be seen of works which fail to depict their subjects in the

‘Japanese way’; these may include the improper depiction of objects, and the use of perspective.

• One such, particularly interesting, example of this group was seen by the author on a C19 Aizu Shōami tsuba that depicted the Shinnen festival. One of the streamers had fallen from the shimenawa, and was lying on the floor. But the space left by it on the straw rope was depicted as though the inlay had become detached from the plate.

 

© Atypical metalworking techniques

You yourself are ideally suited to expand on this group, but ishime depicting the texture of Portuguese tooled leather, and auriculate guards, modelled upon the counter-guards of Western small swords, are two examples of this group.

 

Those are my thoughts on the subject ….

 

Regards, John L.

[IanB]

Few would dispute that during the period that Boxer calls 'The Christian Century', foreign objects and imported materials had a considerable influence on the Japanese. Not only were actual foreign objects imported in some quantity, but aspects of them were adopted into Japanese made products. I saw for myself on the site of Sendai castle, quantities of German enamelled glassware fragments being excavated. In my own field of interest, examples of European arms and armour were imported, being adopted and adapted to Japanese taste. Quite a few namban gusoku survive, generally associated with high ranking people, to illustrate how highly they were regarded. Several of the features of these armours were quickly adopted by Japanese and incorporated in their traditional products and continued to be until the end of the Edo period: solid plate do acquired a medial ridge, the fukurin around the edges of armour became 'roped' in imitation of European armour, ruffs were fitted to the collars of armours and a lot of mail imitated the 4-in-1 European pattern. Armours also began to incorporated exotic foreign products such as Indian cottons, velvet and especially woollen cloth. I attach a photo of an armour recently discovered on Hirado that is made up from two Dutch pikeman's armours. Notice how the haidate, almost certainly Kaga work, is decorated with a lacquered cartouche that may well have originally born a VOC or IHS monogram. I have already mentioned the Matsura aikuchi I bought for the Royal Armouries whose blade was created by cutting down a German sabre or hanger blade. That still bears traces of the Solingen maker's name and the date 1625 or 1635 in the fuller. I suspect both this armour and sword formed part of a gift to the local daimyo since their dates coincide so closely.

Following sakoku, the availability of foreign material dwindled, but foreign ideas and some exotic products still trickled in through Dejima and its Chinese equivalent. Karamonoya, shops exhibiting and selling foreign goods, existed in several localities and Dutch studies in science, medcine, botany and so forth continued and was published. This influx of ideas can be discerned on lacquer, ceramics, netsuke, textiles and so much else. I can recommend 'Bridging the Divide' edited by L. Blusse, W. Remmelink and I. Smits, Hotei Publishing, ISBN 90-74822-24-X which contains essays on many aspects of these interactions.

Ian Bottomley

[Ford Hallam]

John, Ian

 

I was rather hoping we could move past these more obvious examples and instead focus on the actual aesthetic influence that is suppose to have occurred at the end of the 19c. If you read through the posts preceding yours you'll see the direction the discussion was headed.

 

I'd suggest also that we try to avoid the usual, broad sweeping generalisations and vague references to social and political changes etc but that we focus rather on specific points of design, composition and artistic treatment. There, I believe, we may begin to gain a clearer picture of what constitutes the "Japaneseness" of these artefacts (as perceived by us) and what traits seems incongruous or "foreign" to us.

 

While it's relatively easy to identify overt foreign adoptions ( like foreign lettering, black ships, men in pantaloons or Spanish styled armour and brocade leather etc) it's not quite so simple to define the influence of Western aesthetics as it's absorbed into and expressed in indigenous art forms. It's specifically this aspect that I was hoping this topic might explore.

 

 

 

Moss,

 

thank you for your kind compliment. I do what I can

[IanB]

Ford, Point taken. I will dwell on this for a while.

Ian B

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks Ian....just reread my post...sorry if I sounded a bit "school marm-ish"

[Ford Hallam]

John,

 

you mentioned the use of perspective as being indicative of Western influence. I know what you mean and that often the usual, "normal" sense of perspective is abandoned in Japanese art for a more schematic sort of view but is it really absent until the West introduces it? Surely Chinese landscape painting had already introduced that concept of perspective well enough and quite early on in Japanese artistic development.

 

If we look at a typical Jakushi landscape we see a conventional "schematic" sort of composition that isn't too concerned with true perspective at all. However, many Choshu landscapes do take care to present a more realistic sense of perspective and the Otsuki school, Mitsuoki in particular, frequently depict scenes very faithfully as regards perspective.

 

Some images to illustrate the point will help the discussion....I'll add some later...I must get back to my bench now though.

[docliss]

Oh dear, are we back to 'aesthetics' again? John L.

[sanjuro]

It has been pointed out in a previous post that the Japanese tsubako readily adapted Chinese and Korean design elements and aesthetics into an indiginous Japanese style.

Given that artists are forever looking for a point of differentiation in their work and are therefore hungry for new and exciting things to depict, as well as unexplored aesthetics to incorporate, Is it not a possibility that having seen Western forms of decoration and possibly finding a style that was essentially unexplored by them, that they tried to capture small parts of that style and incorporate them into their work firstly on an experimental basis and then as a genuine artistic endeavour? Some of the incongruity of so called Western influenced work certainly echoes of this, at least to my eye. Not overtly Western, neither wholly Japanese, but an admixture of elements and effects that sometimes do not fit well with whatever our preconception is of Japanese style.

 

Docliss.

This topic at least deserves some serious consideration. The ground rules have been agreed. Aesthetics inevitably enters largely into such discussions, and like it or not will be mentioned in context. There is no harm in their inclusion provided that minds remain open.

[Ford Hallam]

John L.

 

given your expressed dislike of any sort of discussion about aesthetics how do you actually look at art....without taking aesthetics into account?

[docliss]

Ford, it is not the use of aesthetics about which I express my dislike. Rather is it the constant repetition of the phrase 'Japanese aesthetic' as a form of mantra, and used to express a concept which the user, in his imagination, wrongly attributes as being unique to the Japanese.

 

John L.

[Ford Hallam]

ah, ok John

 

but then this discussion may well help to clarify exactly this vagueness, that to be honest, bothers me too.

 

I've been a bit naughty really, in the way I'm framed the discussion though so I'll come clean...but not just yet

 

To dig a bit deeper I present a fairly well known image. I'd be interested to hear what the general consensus is as to what influences are evident in it.

[Marius]

 

To dig a bit deeper I present a fairly well known image. I'd be interested to hear what the general consensus is as to what influences are evident in it.

[attachment=0]thegreatwaveoffkanagawa.png[/attachment]

 

hm... most people (included myself) would say that Hokusai's work (and that of other ukiyo-e artists) has had a tremendous influence on art nouveau. But that it could display Western influences? That most of us (except for the NMB members, haha) would - wrongly - doubt.

 

Highly interesting topic, and excellent example of how we hang on to our own image of what is "uniquely Japanese". Thanks Ford, for having initiated this discussion. What an opportunity to learn!

 

Here is the answer, hidden in the spoiler

 

 

To Westerners, this woodblock seems to be the quintessential Japanese image, yet it's quite un-Japanese. Traditional Japanese would have never painted lower-class fishermen (at the time, fishermen were one of the lowest and most despised of Japanese social classes); Japanese ignored nature; they would not have used perspective; they wouldn't have paid much attention to the subtle shading of the sky. We like the woodblock print because it's familiar to us. The elements of this Japanese pastoral painting originated in Western art: it includes landscape, long-distance perspective, nature, and ordinary humans, all of which were foreign to Japanese art at the time. The Giant Wave is actually a Western painting, seen through Japanese eyes.

 

Hokusai didn't merely use Western art. He transformed Dutch pastoral paintings by adding the Japanese style of flattening and the use of color surfaces as a element. By the the 1880's, Japanese prints were the rage in Western culture and Hokusai's prints were studied by young European artists, such as Van Gogh and Whistler, in a style called Japonaiserie. Thus Western painting returned to the West.

 

[Ford Hallam]

Ah, Mariuszk

 

you've seen through my plan :D . This is exactly the thing.

 

Japanese art of the middle to late Edo period was already very much influenced by Western art. So much so, and so seamlessly, that to talk of a later Western influence around the time of the Bakumatsu period and on is really somewhat meaningless.

 

Everything that we can point to as being apparently Western had already been well assimilated and reworked from the time of Hokusai; 1760-1849.

[Ford Hallam]

We're still left with the thorny issue of what constitutes the essential "Japanese-ness" in Japanese art. As the article Mariuszk linked to, about Kokusai, describes; he reinterpreted the Western influences he sought out and reworked them into something we, from our view point, regard as quintessentially Japanese.

[Marius]

We're still left with the thorny issue of what constitutes the essential "Japanese-ness" in Japanese art. As the article Mariuszk linked to, about Kokusai, describes; he reinterpreted the Western influences he sought out and reworked them into something we, from our view point, regard as quintessentially Japanese.

 

This is a tough one, and, frankly, I cannot imagine we will be able to come to any conclusions before having gone through a whole library of highly specialist positions

 

I think we might start with the Japanese aesthetics insofar as it differs from the Western. We will, of course see the two converging on different occasions, but we will find moments and places in history where the divergence was so great that we even might get close to understanding the Japanese-ness in Japanese art. Maybe we should look for the deepest contrasts? Tea ceremony vs. courtly ceremonies in Europe, Raku ceramics vs. Cellini's saltbox? Or: yashiki interiors vs. Versailles? Where should we start? The Heian court could be a great starting point, even with all its borrowings form T'ang China. But then, where should we stop? Late Edo? Meiji?

 

Or maybe we could try to analyse concepts like wabi sabi and the opposing aspects of ikki and yabu... Frankly, I am lost here.

 

This seems to be a a discussion so vast that it will not fit into a discussion board, unless it will be an affair of scholars who are truly versed in Japanese art. I am sure some people on this Board fall into this category, so a discussion would be fascinating, especially with excursions into nihonto and tosogu.

[george trotter]

Hi Ford et al...

what a refreshing change to see this topic addressed in such a reasoned and erudite manner, from what I have read so far, based on observation and study, rather than bias and prejudice.

For me,(not being an art scholar), I have to say that very little in Japanese sword and related art strikes me as evincing a "western influence'. Many things are "western"...morion, tanegashima, certain arms and armours etc, but these seem to remain what they always were, (original or copies of) western objects. Their form and function remains unchanged, only minor functional accessories or materials change to suit local tastes/needs technologies or cultural taboos (eg, powder kept in a dried gourd, rather than a cow horn; brass springs instead of spring steel).

In the case of their decoration however, a strong preference for maintaining a "Japaneseness" is evident (which we all love), but as we know, everything we love, like Japanese dress, architecture, literature, graphic art, applied art, government, religion, city planning, social heirachy etc etc is essentially borrowed from 8th-9th century China. In effect, what some in past threads have angrily insisted was "pure Japanese aesthetic" could be characterised as "Chinese art evincing a strong Japanese influence".

I suppose what I'm saying is that most of the interpretation of the "westernness" of a given "influence" depends on the eye and knowledge of the beholder. Craig explained his reasoning for the perception of "western influence" on the kodzuka handle with bow, banner etc...it is quite reasonable, but is it western influence or rather a depiction of western objects by a Japanese artist?

For me, the little "galloping horse" dai tsuba, and the little "horses hoofprints" sho tsuba of an earlier thread was a delightfully "Japanese" artistic conceit. If someone could use it as an example to illustrate in a dispassionate, scholarly way (without perjoratives), that it is indeed "western", I would be interested to learn.

regards,

George.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Mariuszk, George, gentlemen

 

Yes, this is a vast subject and very complex. I do think, though, that if we continue to explore all the aspect we can think of we may begin to at least gain a more nuanced appreciation of the overall "flavours" of Japanese art and become more aware of where various influences and expressions originate.

 

I also think that this forum, where we can all throw in various observations, questions etc, may be quite a good way to get to grips with the subject as a collaborative effort. I certainly don't have a road map

 

So to jump right in I'd offer this small observation on the daisho tsuba George mentioned. For me, the way the sho of the pair is treated, with just those imprints of the hooves and a few falling petals is so whimsical it feels almost like an afterthought. It's quite audacious, speaks to a supreme confidence in the artist and makes me smile at his light-hearted sense of humour.

 

Now, we could well find similar examples in Western art, of this sort of "casualness" but this does actually strike me as being quite Japanese. It feels a little as though it's inspired by the directness and lack of pretension that Zen teaches. The other aspects of the treatment are, of course the minimalism and the fact that it's just the merest suggestion that we're given. Again, both quite characteristic of Japanese art, to my mind.

 

The dai on the other hand is very bold and explicit. The horse is slapped right where it has the most impact. It's nicely poised in the upper half of the plate and angled just enough to impart a dynamic feeling of movement. This composition, as well as the actual lines that make up the horse (not to mention the style) are pure sumi-e ( ink painting). What could be more Japanese?...even if it did arrive initially from China it has become quite a different art form.

 

The extra bit, for me, is that this dramatic and lively painterly effect is not loosely brushed on paper but rather, chiselled into cold metal. To even attempt this sort of thing, where no error can be permitted and there are no second chances, is a sort of technical bravado that I tend to very strongly associate with Japanese artists.

 

This direct, gestural quality is now fairly commonplace in contemporary art worldwide. Some is very good...especially that which is informed by serious study and practice...some, is merely an excuse for poor technique and lack of inspiration. The Japanese tradition has long understood the need to master ones processes first and then to transcend the limitations of technique to express oneself more authentically. Again, I see the influence of Zen Buddhism at work in this approach.