Can a gunto saya be cleaned to stop rust?

[moss]

Hello all,

 

I have a metal gunto saya that continually causes the blade to rust even soon after cleaning and oiling.

Is there anyway to remedy an obvious problem.

The blade in question is not stored in there any longer but I wish to rehouse it in the mounts as they are all matched .

Can the wooden liners be removed,cleaned and replaced without any damage?

This is an old family blade that was taken to war and I would like to keep it as it has been for the last 70 odd years.

 

Any advice appreciated

 

Moss

[Jamie]

If it's an old blade, you might want to consider having a shira saya made for it.

 

Jamie

[John A Stuart]

Yes, they may be removed and cleaned or a new one made and inserted. John

[moss]

John,

 

Are there any tricks to it?

I would hate to damage it even though it has caused heaps of frustration in the past.

 

Cheers Moss

[Bruno]

Fred LHOMAN can make you a fresh new one for 300$. Otherwise, in one of F&G booklet, the author says that you can yourself remove the liner by pulling it of the scabbard, and then clean it.

[John A Stuart]

Remove the two screws in the kuchigane and remove. Remove the screw in the ishizuki and remove. If the saya has not been bent, dented or otherwise internally corroded the liner should come out fairly easily. Now you have to split it and clean it with a scraper and sandpaper, unless so bad it just has to be replaced. Re-glue and re-assemble. Done. John

[Lee Bray]

Sandpaper might proof troublesome if it leaves any grit in the liner. I'd stick to the scraper.

Be wary of the glue used also. Some are known to cause rust, such as Titebond II.

I've used Titebond and Elmer's wood glue (not nihonto) with no bad effects to the steel.

[John A Stuart]

Yes, good point Lee, that can happen if it isn't blown clean afterwards. If the liner is really gummed up with old oil I wouldn't use sandpaper at all. The glue better used is rice glue made yourself from glutinous rice. I used wood glue once on a shirosaya and to re-split it later was not so easy. John

[george trotter]

Hi all,

on the point od a scabbard liner causing rust each time a sword is placed in it sounds serious. Without knowing how long the sword was left in the liner between checking it is hard to be specific, but it sounds like there is some rusting agent in the wood. Maybe it is sea water?. If you are going to the trouble of removing the liner to scrape and clean, it might be worth while, if no obvious rust cause can be spotted, to consider soaking the liner halves in clean, distilled water for a week or two...then pour out the water and refill and soak for another two weeks in distilled water...this will eventually leach out any salt...the more water changes and number of soaks (6 months would be good), will (should) clean out the salt (if that's what it is). If you had a means to test each used lot of water for salt you would only need to continue the treatment as long as salt showed in the water. Once clean you can let dry thoroughly and then re-glue with rice paste glue (I once used "Selley's Aquadhere - a PVA glue?) and got instant rust. Perhaps the easiest remedy is new liners from Fred Lohman...but you'd have to send the sword?

Hope this helps,

George.

[moss]

Thanks all,

I will have a go at sorting it out.

Would surgical alcohol help with the cleaning process or would this be another potential time bomb?

I guess a worst case would be a replacement but I will try the idea of George's to soak and leach before going with a replacement.

 

I can test the water between soaking with a conductivity or alternately a PH meter so a soaking should definatively prove acidity in the timber if no physical cause is visible

I will post a couple of pictures on the progress once I begin.

 

Cheers Moss

[David Flynn]

problem with soaking is, they are usualy fragile. Many,( unless the mount is in very good condition), fall apart upon removing

[moss]

Hello all,

 

It's good news,the liners are out and I found the problem.

There was an old piece of paper inside right in the spot where it rusted.

Obviously very broken up but enough to cause a problem.

I did a very light scrape of the internals and a scrub with distilled water as suggested.

Just leave it to dry for a few days now, then if George would kindly give me his Rice Glue Recipe it will be reassembled.

Picture 1 and 2 before.Picture 3 same spot after cleaning.

Many thanks to all with advice.

 

Cheers Moss

[sanjuro]

Moss.

 

While you have the inserts out check the inner surfaces of the metal saya. Any red rust there would not be good for the new or clean inserts. Neutralising agents for rust are relatively cheap. Maybe some of the other members can make suggestions in that respect.

 

The rice paste is easy. Boil some rice until the water is very starchy and the rice is soft. Pour off the water and work the rice into a thick paste with a wooden spatula. Theres a recipe in the 'craft of the Japanese sword' by Leon Kapp and Yoshindo Yoshihara. See the section on shirasaya. If you cant find a copy I can scan the reference and email it to you. George will also have it no doubt if he has used it before. (Sorry George.. stealing your thunder without intending to)

[moss]

Thanks Keith,and all,

That sounds probably wise with the high humidity in Brizvegas.

Does anyone no if any of the liquid rust converters would pose a future problem to the blade?

From memory I believe they are acid based(Phosphoric acid and oxalic acid)

Or would it be a case of best left alone

 

Many thanks,

 

Moss

[John A Stuart]

I have only used Naval Jelly before (phosphoric acid) and never on anything nihonto related and aluminum cleaners which are a mild solution of the same. I would not have them anywhere near something like this, no matter how much I flushed it with water afterwards. There would always be the chance some remnants remain in a crevice or seam and rue the day I used it. I give an emphatic "NO". John

[Stephen]

I give an emphatic "NO". John

 

100% agree, maybe a gun cleaning rod with swab, lightly oiled.

I have had many saya lightly tapped on a table, you'd be surprised at what fell out.

[moss]

Thanks Stephen and John,

I have given it a good tap out and will run a rod and brush down it and just leave it at that.

I guess it lived 70 years the way it is .

Thanks for all the help once again.

 

 

Moss

[george trotter]

Glad the clean-up turned out simple and effective...and no, no worries about stolen "thunder". I would also generally concur about rust removers/inhibitors...I recently saw a reasonably good sword 1864 with cutting test, but unfortunately the blade was black from some unknown rust treatment...so...some chemicals are definitely bad.

Maybe this is a new thread, but does any member have a proven system to clean the isolated pit on a blade and stop further rust activity? I have a pit on a blade that I am afraid might be trying to turn into spider rust.

regards,

George.

[sanjuro]

What I had in mind when making the suggestion was a converter not a remover, that was non toxic and turned rust into a stable insoluble organo metallic layer. (If such a product exists). Anything even mildly toxic would be totally out of the question.

[bluboxer]

I have used a chemical treatment called Ospho (http://www.ospho.com/) on stainless steels and mild steels to prep them for paint and/or direct immersion in sea water.Many of these metal parts remain under water for months at a time and are recovered with minimal or no rust.I have not tried it on polished carbon steels.

It is a phosphoric acid base (with other stuff) so it might etch a polished surface.

[moss]

Gidday Keith,

 

I think the product you were thinking of is a converter that turns ferrous oxide into a kind of shiny brown looking coating......?

 

I will just brush ,oil and leave.

Good though to get the opinions and advice of others.

Almost dry enough to glue the liner together now ,should have no problem with the paste,my rice always comes out gluey.

 

Cheers all

 

Moss

[loiner1965]

interesting thread chaps.....my view would be to clean the wood as described and thouroughly with a rod and patch with some light oil rub the insides as best you can....leave for a while then remove with dry lint free patches

[moss]

Steve,

 

The treatment appears to have worked,the rust area has not reappeared to date.

Thanks to all on their input.

Operation a sucess.

 

Moss