Flaws or Provenance

[Justin Grant]

Flaws (fatal or otherwise) or Provenance

 

Maybe it is just a school of thought, or what your intention of collecting is, but I have a question that I would like your opinions on.

 

Some of you have seen my sword I posted a month of so ago, and I received many comments on its age, style, etc. I sent this off to a very well respected and admired person in the Nihonto community, I will not release this persons name out of respect, as I have not asked them if I can release their name but they sent me a report on the blade.

 

This appraisal was done with the sword in hand if that makes a difference in your opinion.

 

The sword started out as a Tachi and was shortened. This person had the opinion that it was from the Koto era, Mihara or Kongobei schools. This sword has a Kiri-Komi and the tip has a Mizu Kage from it being reshaped (why it was shortened) and re-tempered, during this process, the temper runs off (Nioi Giri) about an inch before the new temper for the tip. It was estimated that these damages happened in battle and the owner had it repaired.

 

It was suggested that these are fatal flaws and I can see the point of view from their side. If you are collecting and in this for the best of the best, you want only superior examples of work from the master craftsmen. But is there a school of thought that also looks at these for what they were used for? I (my personal opinion) think that the damage, repair and continued use add so much value and provenance to this blade. This is what these items were used for; battle.

 

I see these blades as having as much value as a "pristine" blade because they show the true use and the consequence of such use. I don't know for a fact, being a novice, but I would imagine that the average Samurai would have purchased what he could afford, and like most of us today, they purchased the "Ford", "Chevy" or "Chrysler" for use, and the more financially secure purchased more "Exotic" models. So, collecting is also a reflection of this. Some collect only the best, and have the financial means to do so, others can't afford a $20,000 blade, more or less a $5,000 blade, but we can afford these battle flawed version, but it seems that we are directed not to because they are flawed. As I stated, I see value in these blades, maybe I am waxing nostalgic, but the history and battles these blades have seen make them of value, at least to me.

 

I would be interested in what the opinions are on the collectability of battle flawed blades versus manufacturing flawed blades (blisters, etc), and the collectability of prime examples.

 

Thank you,

 

Justin

[Pete Klein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationaliz ... psychology)

 

Justin -- you have the right to collect whatever you wish but I'd seriously think on this a bit. I send this with all respect.

[Mark Green]

A DEAD sword has very little collectability value. Near none.

They can be had cheep though. And need someone to love them for what they are.

Mostly best to put them to rest, of recyle them into something alive.

In combat, swords died all the time, just like the people using them. Their history, and deeds, can be honored.

It is all up to you.

Mark G

[paulb]

Justin,

As Pete says it is up to you to collect what you want. There are probably as many reasons for collecting as there are collectors. Motivation for collecting and the merits of collecting swords from different periods has been debated here often and sometimes with considerable emotion. I think the important thing is for the individual to know what they are collecting and why. If your thing is battle damaged, repaired and battered pieces and you obtain pleasure from preserving and understanding that, great, continue to enjoy it.

Where things get confused and sometimes arguments occur is when someone buys a blade in the condition you describe in the mistaken and hopeful belief they are national treasure art waiting to be discovered. When reality hits home people can get very defensive and try to dispute or argue what is front of their eyes.

The guidance for collecting Nihon-To is the same as for everything else and can be summarised as follows:

 

1. collect what you like and the best you can afford within that field.

2. Dont buy for investment, buy because you enjoy what it is. If years on you sell it at a profit great, but if not appreciate the pleasure it has given you.

3. It is better to have a few good pieces than many mediocre.

When starting out collecting in any new field the liklihood of affording the higher end works always seems daunting. Over time if you buy and sell wisely it is possible to build up to better works (if that is what you want to do) Many of the best collections I have seen started with a gunto blade which stimulated interest.

Hopefully there is room within the subject for all areas of enthusiasm none necessarily better than the other, just different.

If people warn you away from something it is based on the commercial value and your ability to recover your investment, which for old battle relics is always questionable. (The one you describe above has more than its fair share of problems that make it a financial liability).

but as said above its up to you to buy and collect what you want. Just study enough so you fully understand what you are buying and are not caught out by something you dont recognise.

Best Regards

Paul

[watsonmil]

Dear Justin,

I have collected and dealt in Arms and armour for at least 35 - 40 years. Many weapons show damage, and yes they are still collectible.

They have not lost their intergrity, ... they have simply been part and took part in history. If the Japanese sword is to be looked upon sticktly as a weapon then yes in that context it is still collectible. Some collect factory made Japanese Swords of WWII as an example. The problem with the true Japanese Samurai sword is that it was a hand made weapon that if not identifyable to a specific maker then almost certainly at least to a specific school and time. Now once a sword has become damaged, and reshaped as well as re-tempered, ... it is no longer an example of the original maker's work, and quite often even the school can no longer be ascertained with certainty. It is now simply a weapon of UNKNOWN provenance. The re-tempering has changed not only it's shape, but the original hamon ( unless that of an early documented blade ) cannot be even closely duplicated. It would be like collecting a fine Sharpes Rifle but with a Remington barrel, and a Winchester buttstock, ..... not very desirable at all. It is often hard to accept this, ... and we all try to rationalize and thereby change the rules to suit OURSELVES. How ever we rationalize it, .... we cannot change the facts. In the long run we lose credibility. Sooner or later you will find that special Nihonto that has your name on it whether or not it is a $ 20,000.00 sword or it is a $ 1500.00 sword. It will be a treasure never the less. The main thing if you want to stay in this game is to accept error as a learning experience, and strive for the best you can afford, whether or not you are wealthy is totally irrelevant. ... Kindest regards, ... Ron Watson

[Justin Grant]

Paul, et al,

 

Thanks for the replies. I know what I purchased, for what I paid for it, I knew up front that it was not a "national treasure" and I could have purchased a months worth of lunches with the money, so I am not out a bunch of money.

 

I agree that you should collect what you like, and derive pleasure from it. If people are in this for the sole purpose of making money, I need to reevaluate my way of thinking. Sure, items may increase over time in value, and on the other side of that coin, decrease in value, it depends on the market.

 

My thoughts (rationalization as I was directed to consider) is thus. I restore cars for a hobby, Jags, Vettes, Shelby's, and one day I came across a Shelby that was a basket case. It had been in a serious wreck on the track. Now, if you know old cars, Shelby's bring 100's of thousands of dollars and one recently sold for over a million dollars. I was advised by the "Shelby" community to leave it as it was and it would be worth more in that condition than restored, it was the provenance that made the value. Sure enough, I cleaned the bird poop and dead barn critters out of it and had collectors lined up wanting to purchase it. Today, it sits in a collection as it was found. This type of collecting can be found in most all other forms of collecting with the exclusion of this hobby or business (depending on your point of view). Were the collectors wanting to by the Shelby "rationalizing" the purchase or buying the provenance?

 

If for example this blade was the only surviving example of a school, given the current condition, would that change the value? Would people then rationalize the purchase and placed value given the scarcity?

 

I am not saying all "damaged" blades need to be valued, but I wonder why it is that unless it is as forged or better than new, it has low to no value.

 

I am not kidding myself on the value, just asking why it is that this form of collecting only recognizes pristine and not the others, going as far as to exclude them from consideration.

 

This is not a knock on anyone, I am just trying to understand, and I know there are passionate people out there, so I take it as it comes. I don't have thin skin.

[Veli]

The following are only my personal opinions, although they are in line with the previous replies .

 

I collect Nihonto for three reasons: artistic value, historical value and the metallurgical and technological supremacy over other edged weapons of past centuries.

 

Mass produced swords, or swords with flaws that seriously obscure the skill of the maker, like saiha (retemper) or tsukare (tiredness: loss of skin steel and shape deformation) only very seldom possess any artistic or aesthetic value, since the beauty of the hada, hamon and sugata are greatly diminished.

 

Mass produces swords, as well as most gimei swords, cannot be traced back to individuals who made them or used them. Thus their historical value is small, a fact that is emphasized by their large numbers. Furthermore, mass produced swords, as well as tired swords, do not serve as examples of supreme skill, knowledge end craftsmanship.

 

Battle-inflicted fatal flaw on a good sword is a more complicated thing. It does not really take away all the abovementioned motivations for collecting: I personally would prefer a sai-jo saku blade with a battle-inflicted hagire to a kazu-uchi mono blade with no (other) flaws, the price being the same.

 

With a 3000-5000 USD budget, after months of careful study and comparison and with a little luck and help you may find a decent, signed, papered blade by a reasonably skilled smith. This is a far better option than to buy 5-7 pieces of mass-produced or flawed blades 400-800 USD each. Blades that are of low quality and out of polish should be completely avoided, since there is nothing to see, polishing cost would never be justified, and by polishing yourself you would zero the value and possibly ruin some decent blades.

 

Finally, there is no absolute truth in these matters. Good luck in finding your own way into nihonto world!

 

BR, Veli

[Rich T]

A DEAD sword has very little collectability value. Near none.

 

Indeed, but even more importantly, a dead sword has little value as a sword. A fatal flaw means that the sword is indeed most likely no longer reliable, and if the flaw happens to be in the monouchi, then it probably cannot get any worse. Any bushi worth his salt would not go into battle with a sword that would most like snap in two with the first strike. His life and duty to his lord would demand it. He should discard it and get another as soon as possible.

 

The only time I could think that this might be otherwise is in the dying years of the Bakamatsu period, when Samurai were either unemployed, very poor or had no real use for swords. That end of their history is far less interesting in my view and swords were more just decoration or a status symbol for the average man. Not as an important part of their life as such.

 

My advice, collect quality. Don't collect flaws. You'l just hate them later on and they'll teach you nothing, other than they are flaws.

 

Just my early Easter Opinion.

 

Rich

[sanjuro]

Justin.

 

For what this may be worth, when others have explained their case against such swords so eloquently, I present a point of view that is perhaps different.

 

There is indeed merit in some battered swords. They have as you have expressed a certain dignity of service, and some collectors value that. My Sensei owned a very battered sword and revered it greatly, since his ancestor had carried it and died with it in his hand at the battle of Sekigahara. .

In my own case although I now own a few really good swords, I still keep a rather battered and poor example of a katana that taught me so much in the early years of collecting, that I cannot bear to part with it. It has just about every flaw known to man, and still also has damage from usage.

 

Swords that evidence some use are one thing, and those in which we can identify faults of manufacture, whilst being instructive to the student of nihonto, are another. If you wish to love and preserve an otherwise uncollectable blade then it is your perogative to do so. Learn from them and become knowledgeable.

 

Our motives for collecting can be many and varied. The market in America and Europe is for packaged and polished swords that have a determined value. Many collectors favour these swords and collect them because of their value as an investment or their preference for them for any number of other reasons. This isnt wrong or mercenary, it is simply the way it is.

There are other collectors who accumulate examples that have some historical significance or association with a certain school, smith or period. Condition within reason may be secondary therefore in acquiring a given piece.

 

Given the above, very few collectors will knowingly collect a dead or fatally flawed blade, simply because due to damage or flawed condition it can no longer be considered a viable blade and could not therefor serve as such. Such blades have no real value monetary or otherwise, other than as possibly items for study. If however, you only study such swords, your nihonto experience is limited to less than perfect examples and should be balanced by the study of fine swords and well preserved examples in order to be complete.

 

For my own part I feel sorry for collectors who only collect for monetary value. As knowledgeable as some of them may be, they miss a great deal in never knowing the feel of a good blade even though it may not be in pristine condition or perfectly polished.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[Brian]

This whole issue isn't as complex as it seems. It comes down to 2 simple categories: Art collectors vs militaria collectors.

Most who value and collect Nihonto do so from an art aspect, and the swords should be as close to original as possible. Condition and quality rule over everything else.

Then you have the militaria collectors, who collect for the "mystique" and weapon aspect. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to separate the 2 categories to understand what you collect, why, and to what extent.

 

Brian

[loui]

I have a few swords on the wall, some of them are pretty nice, but one of them stands out for me and I like it the most, a bizen wakizashi, gimei, a large hagire, and 2 large blisters above the hagire. This blade had been bent very badly at some point in its life - that caused the crack and blisters. This blade came out of an old collection in Japan, the Japanese owner was very wealthy and had some very expensive swords, he loved it enough to have a high quality shirasaya made, a top quality polish, and a top quality habaki for it - so why would a Japanese collector spend 3K on a restoration on a gimei blade with some brutal "fatal" flaws? Maybe there is a sucker born every minute - or maybe some people see things differently than others. If you think that there are old collections in Japan that are free of hagire then I think you are mistaken.

 

I remember looking at a Kanabo Masatsugu katana at one of the Chicago shows, it had been taken out of a shrine and polished, I think it had 8 or 12 hagire in it, it had obviously been in some major battle/battles, it was quite the sight to behold - worthless? To some maybe, as a functional sword? You bet, but I don't think it would have formed all those hagire in one strike - seemed to work very well for its owner until it was offered to the shrine. Valuable enough for a shrine.

 

It isn't black and white to all, some have their likes and dislikes, historical value, aesthetic value, group mentality etc all tend to form the way we feel about swords. I'll keep my old bizen sword, it's not for sale, newer collectors tend to look at it and just see a hagire, some old collectors as well, but some look at it and see a very nice sword, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

I am not saying that all swords with hagire are great and that they should be restored yada yada, but I will say that each sword should be judged on its own and to not always succumb to a group thought. To say a sword with a hagire is worthless as a rule I'll disagree some of the time. Oh, and I paid $100.00 for my wakizashi.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[Justin Grant]

I see all sides of this, but the owner of this sword thought enough of it at the time to have it repaired and I would imaging, carried it for some time post repair, and I am sure it saw continued use. Some how, family or otherwise, still held on to this blade for a considerable time considering its age before it found its way to me. Somewhere along the way, many people felt it was worthy of salvation, because if not, I am sure back in the day when it was damaged, if it was of no value, it would have been scrapped and a new blade secured.

 

I am no oracle, I can only speculate, dream, and make my own conclusions based on what is presented to me, but many, many others before me thought this was more than a DEAD sword.

 

This link http://www.to-ken.com/articles/Masamune.htm list a blade with several Kiri-Komi, and says such marks are "...Much Prized.... Is this true on this blade because of the other factors this blade possesses as it's provenance outside of the "flaws".

 

I do admire the passion and conviction you all have shown, and it is all respected by me. Just trying to understand.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

So you restore Shelby and Jaguar for hobby.

 

Then, let's try to shift the similitude from swords to cars.

 

As example you're linking to a sword by no less then Masamune with no fatal flaws. Just kirikomi that are perfectly acceptable or even desirable under a collecting point of view. However the basis still is : the sword is a rare masterpiece, with no fatal flaws with a documented history. Items like this are out of reach for everybody but an handful of people (worldwide).

 

This is comparable to a Shelby with its original damaged bonnet/hood that Cary Grant drove hurting the Porche of Marilyn Monroe, according to genuine fotographic documentation of the time.

 

Still, the mass of "old cars" (and swords) out there are the mass-produced or maximum average ones. Let's take an average Alfa Romeo Giulia GTA owned by 3 generations of "John Smith", that has seen much better days and has been restored with pieces of any other car available to maintain it marching in someway (reshaped and re-tempered), either for need or for nostalgia. No way to have it registered at R.I.A.R. (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) because it's nomore original and far from good conditions. No documents that proves anything in its past but the understandable affection and dreaming of the owner.

 

This is your sword (and the car with which I learnd to drive, demolished 20+ years ago).

 

Everything in between can be considered collectible, but there are irrefutable criteria as artistic quality, scarcity, conditions, documented history that makes the difference.

 

Honourability (that can't be measured and is subjective) shouldn't be considered substitutive, nor in conflict with the above criteria, just

considered as a seperate quality, that can be applied, in full right, even to NCO Gunto or rusted "Rebellion swords" according to the feeling of each individual.

 

IMHO, of course.