Star Stamped swords

[Stephen]

I will continue my inquiries anyway

 

Gerorge a noble quest, can i be your side kick Sancho

 

didnt like my post on false stars??

[estcrh]

Well, I thank all for their comments so-far (although some have gone off topic)...but I must say that the lack of "real" feedback on star- stamp swords and shinsa papers etc is mystfying.

I would have thought that NMB members, some of whom mix at the top of the Japanese sword world, would have some knowledge to share, or obtain some knowledge to share. Whether they are liked or disliked, star marked swords are a part of nihonto history and deserve to be discussed/clarified...I can't believe there is no knowledge on this subject.

I will continue my inquiries anyway and will post whatever I find (pro or con).

regards,

George.

George, sorry to have side tracked your topic, the whole tang stamp discussion is rather hard to get a grasp on, so many different opinions and so much conflicting information.

[Curgan]

A thread that was a pleasure to read nevertheless ...

[george trotter]

Hey guys, don't apologise...I'm not sulking here...I appreciate your comments...it's just surprising that none of the genro who have all the connections in Japan and have given so many posts over the years on their knowledge of shinsa/papers etc have said nothing...One reason why I ask these questions is that I have never sent a sword for polish/shinsa so didn't have any first hand experience on bans etc...that's why I hoped for some feedback from the experienced. I am still making enquiries however.

 

Heh, heh...which one am I...the donkey? I have seen the odd ebay sword with a fake star too Stephen, not too hard to spot but might take in newcomers...a pity....that's why it always pays to go on the quality of the blade, all else is secondary...

Regards,

George.

[Stephen]

Heh, heh...which one am I...the donkey

this is the a better pic your Don Q I'm your sidekick Sancho...in our quest for gendaito to be honored now, not in a hundred years.

[george trotter]

Nice pic Stephen...who's that glaring at us from behind...not the Mod I hope?

About gendaito...It is odd is it not...it has been pointed out that Yasukunito were frowned upon but now are eagerly sought out and shinsa'd...and rightly so. I think there might be some truth in the saying that the West has a greater appreciation og Showa gendaito than the Japanese, simply because we see so many more.

Logic would dictate that an equally sound group of gendaito...those made by the traditionally trained Rikugun Jumei tosho...specifically instructed to work with tamahagane, charcoal and traditional forging...and inspected to ensure that this was done, should be afforded the same respect, (although to be fair, we still don't have absolute proof that they are not shinsa'd and papered). Perhaps Japan just has no real knowledge of them? On the other hand, if star stamp are banned as a low-quality and low artistic merit group as a whole (as has been speculated upon), I wonder why all those Japanese sword books like Toko Taikan, Gendai Toko Meikan, Gendai Toko Kinko Shokukata Soran etc, etc make a point of noting when those of the Tosho listed were Rikugun Jumei Tosho? Surely it would be irrelevant to postwar sword circles and must harm their professional standing?

I wonder if Minatogawajinja-to are shinsa'd? They have a horimono of kikusui...perhaps that is not considered a stamp...does anyone know if these are shinsa'd and papered?

I wonder also if a tiny "Saka" stamp on a Gassan Sadakatsu blade would see it banned?

It's all a mystery...hopefully I will get some info back after Easter Mr Panza...:-)

Regards,

George

[george trotter]

Oh...I turns out I can answer two of the above questions...Minatogawa tosho have been papered by NBTHK/NTHK according to Rich Stein's site. Minatogawa (Masuda) Masaaki and Minatogawa (Ito) Masakiyo have received papers and Ricecracker site says that 2001 NBTHK Taikai had 3 Minatogawa on display...so...kikumon is ok for shinsa.

It also says that Yasukuni and Minatogawa and Gassan line smiths works are considered gendaito, with most Yasukuni tosho and Gassan Sadakatsu and Sadakazu all receiving papers...so, I wonder if the little "Saka" stamp mattered?.

So folks, any scraps of personal knowledge about traditionally made Rikugun Jumei Tosho blades being papered/refused papers would be welcome...don't be shy.

Regards,

George.

[drdata]

Hey all, my first post. Its because of this thread that I joined this fine site, after lurking for a bit of course.

 

And yes, I have a dog in this race. A star stamped kanehide (edited to correct spelling) made in 43. Looks like gendiato to me, and I paid a commensurate price.

 

Shinza rules aside, does anyone have a definitive reference that documents that star meant traditionally made with tamahgne (sp), etc? I have seen the sites that all seem to quote the same bit about the what the Jumei Tosho (S/stamp) means, but nothing in the form of an actual Japanese government document.

 

Asked differently, what is the most original/definitive source of info on what star is supposed to mean? Once that is confirmed the debate can switch to why or why not such a blade is allowed into shinza.

 

The Pepin samurai sword site mentions that star stamped have received papers, but no example is cited. I mention as they seem a well-respected long-time US dealer.

 

Seems that such a thing should be easy to prove, and the lack of same makes me think (worry) that there are no star marked/papered examples. Perhaps this is because the tang stamp was first ground off and now the owner does not know/want to admit thy have a "low brow war blade".

 

Thanks all.

 

Harry

[David Flynn]

Just another little tangent on Gendaito as a Whole. At the Sydney shinsa I entered 5 Gendaito. All passed and one, a first Generation Kanenobu (Niwa Kanenobus'Dad), was chosen as one of the best swords in the Show.

At the end of the Show, Dr Gordon Robson, gave a talk on a few swords that the Team had considered, the best swords in the shinsa. It was said of my Kanenobu, that on a whole, Gordon did not like Gendai, but here was a good reason to collect Gendaito.

[george trotter]

Hi Harry, welcome to gendaito land...

To answer your query about "the" definitive document/text showing that a star stamp means true gendaito etc, well I have to say I suppose that no-one in the west has seen it. It has been quoted from however, point by point, showing that the metal must be Tamahagane, the sword must be folded/wrap forged in the traditional manner and properly tempered. Materials are to be supplied by the army, charcoal by the prefecture, A smith must submit two swords for testing and only when these have been tested and passed as to quality and performance can he become Rikugun Jumei Tosho. All the particulars as to army required length, measurements etc are given. All completed swords are to be tested for quality/performance and if passed, will be marked with a star.

All of this detail has been quoted here: http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_064.htm This site has been written by Ohmura san and others from this board. Much of it comes from the original sources and from the researcher and scholar on gendaito Uchiyama sensei in "Nihon Gendaito Shoshi" "A Small/short History of Modern Swords" given in 7 articles in Token Bijutsu (NBTHK) over 1969-1970. All of these articles etc are in Japanese and those parts translated show conclusively that star-stamp/RJT swords are gendaito (BUT as with everything nihonto, EACH sword must be carefully assessed). I think there is no doubt, and as to them being papered, well, like you, I always want to see "proof"...that is why I have been asking the NBTHK/NTHK members for feedback...but so far, nothing. Hard to believe that such an important part of nihonto history is unknown/ignored. (BTW, Kapp/Yoshihara and Kishida etc also quote from Uchiyama and these sources).

As to your Kanehide...a great maker...I once had a choice between a Kanehide and an Okishiba Yoshisada and chose the latter. It is still my favourite gendaito, but I would dearly have loved to afford both!!!

And David, nice that a shinsa said some nice words about a Rikugun Jumei Tosho's work. What was the date of it and did it have a star? Also what were the other 4...stars?

Regards,

George.

[drdata]

George, thanks much for the informative reply. Clear I have much to learn. I tried running the link through google translate (and had bookmarked that site for good gunto info), I have to admit it the output made little sense.

 

I will research the other sources you mention and monitor this thread with interest.

 

In the end suspect its too much political baggage to deal with war blades, good or not, so they ban all, except those they mysteriously allow.

 

Regards

[David Flynn]

George, this particular Kanenobu wasn't RJT, I believe he died just before the war. The reason I mentioned this sword, was because many collectors tend to ignore Gendaito. Also, none of the other swords had Star stamps either. Although I'm pricniply a Gendai collector, :D I don't own one with a Star stamp. In fact, I have personaly steered clear of Star stamps, due to the conjecture. As well, we checked with the NTHK Yoshikawa grp. before the Sydney shinsa if Star stamps were acceptable and were told they were. Unfortunately none were submitted.

Just another note on the quality of many Gendaito, I took one(Kanestune) to the NY Shinsa in 2006 and it recieved 75pts and was in top few of the whole shinsa.

[george trotter]

Hi David,

Thanks for that information...it is good to know that NTHK Yoshikawa has no prejudice against accepting star stamp gendaito for shinsa panel. You know, the more we progress along this thread, the more first-hand information emerges...maybe we'll get to the bottom of this after all.

As for gendaito, I have three blades by RJT, but only one has a star stamp...I can't explain why that is...private orders?...one has no date, instead it has a patriotic slogan "Jinchu Hokoku" where the date would be.

Lots of fun.

Regards,

George.

[David Flynn]

George maybe they were made before they were appointed RJT?

[george trotter]

Yes, that is the likely answer come to think of it. The undated (slogan) one we can't know, but the dated one is Sept 1941...I don't know the exact date he became RJT but he won the president's prize in 1943, 1944, so it might be an earlier made blade I have. Incidentally it has the polisher's nagashi lines. The star stamped one is Feb '44 and although dirty, I notice it has the nagashi as well.

While it is generally disparaged, the showato can give some surprises as well...I have one by Amaike Kanenaga (no sho or seki stamp) which has definite handworking,hada, ko-nie etc, and has the polishers nagashi lines under the habaki and on the kissaki mune...so...you never know with these things, you should always have a close look at whatever comes along.

Regards,

George.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

Please consider the following:

 

After the 2nd World War, many Japanese wanted nothing to do with their previous militaristic past. They were almost embarrassed about it in the post-war reconstruction of the country and anything to do with the Army was shunned. Of course, this especially applied to swords and swordsmiths from the early Showa period (1926-45) which were seen as a symbol of the military and hence Japan’s unfortunate situation and occupation. At this time, it is true that Yasukuni-to seemed to have been more highly rated outside of Japan than in the country itself. To many collectors, Yasukuni-to were obviously superior to the mass-produced blades of Seki and the like. At this time (1970/80’s) Japanese dealers were combing the western countries for swords and were certainly aware of the interest in Yasukuni-to. In Japan, awareness of Yasukuni-to was being encouraged by the polisher Fujishiro, whose home and workshop were also in Kudan-shita.

 

I am sure you are aware of certain basic NBTHK shinsa rules that state they will not shinsa a sword when the swordsmith is still alive. This may well have excluded many gendaito whose makers had survived the war, in the early days of the NBTHK. Now the Juto law, which applies to firearms and swords, does not allow the importation of swords marked with arsenal stamps and therefore, they are not accepted for shinsa. I understand that these days such swords would be returned to the overseas owner but they used to risk being destroyed as they are considered as simply weapons with no artistic merit. It is no use you asking if anyone on NMB who are members of the NBTHK (as am I) would enquire on your behalf if star-stamped swords have been through shinsa. The information that you want is not available and if they had “accidentally” accepted a star-stamped sword for shinsa as is rumoured in the past, they certainly would not admit to it, especially to a gaijin!

I hope this is useful within the context of the thread.

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[george trotter]

Hi Clive,

Thank you for that very interesting observation...I think you have explained the matter of why star stamp swords are "ignored" and also why Yasukunito "were ignored" but then "became accepted" for NBTHK/NTHK shinsa.

I had completely forgotten that living Tosho were not shinsa'd. I think this fact, combined with the later ban on "arsenal stamped" swords explains much that we have wondered about on this thread...why some gendaito were eligible for shinsa but not others.

 

As I interpret your information...Many/most WWII Rikugun Jumei Tosho, Minatogawa Jinja Tosho and Yasukuni Tosho re-entered swords after the war, so lived on and produced swords into the 70s, perhaps 80s...so of course their wartime and postwar work was not shinsa'd. When they had largely died out their swords became eligible for shinsa, so Minatogawato, Yasukunito and post-war swords by former Rikugun Jumei Tosho began to appear in the shinsa system...but...as the prohibition on "stamped" swords was now in place, the war-time star stamped blades of RJT were thus ineligible for shinsa, while the Yasukunito and Minatogawato, being unstamped, were now beginning to appear with papers...this explains how yasukunito were "once ignored" and then "became accepted" and why former RJT postwar blades appear with papers but their wartime star marked ones (usually) do not!

 

I hope members will correct me if they disagree with this finding...but I think it is the most logical. I venture to say that since we know the NTHK Yoshikawa? Grp will accept star stamps for shinsa outside Japan that members should submit them, I think they would be papered as true gendaito. Perhaps it is time the matter of Tamahagane gendaito with star stamps was raised with NBTHK leadership as they are clearly a special group that deserves a second look from that body.

I thank you most sincerely Clive! I think you have swept away years of confusion, half-truth and rumour about star-stamp gendaito and shinsa.

Regards,

George.

[drdata]

Interesting. Thanks for keeping an interesting topic alive.

 

Seems to me that such a policy encourages the removal of stamps, thereby denying future generations ubu-nakato, which is bad form.

 

I understood shinsa rules to specifically state that an item is to be judged on its own merits, not based on when it was made. Its not the sword's fault as to when it was forged, after all.

 

I mean, if a sword happens to made for the military, because its war time, and certain conformity must be imposed, to include the need for high-quality/cutting tests, then an inspection mark of acceptance is the way its done.

 

Seems like extended periods of peace, wherein swords are made as art for wealthy patrons rather than as as killing tools for warriors, is the exception rather than the norm? Was not a sword forged for a samurai in (insert non-showato period here) meant as a weapon first and then, perhaps, as art second?

 

Seems Japan has a hard time dealing with the ghosts of WW II for sure. Warriors fought with honor in all wars, and to diminish their efforts and tools, just because the exit status was less than desirable, is to commit on ongoing wrong. Somehow I feel if Japan had won the war these "guntos" would have higher esteem, no?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

[george trotter]

Hi Harry, I think you make some valid points...

Removal of stamps has been mentioned, which is a pity in historical terms and you are correct that a shinsa panel will judge a sword on its merit, not on what history goes with it, but unfortunately, the swords must pass the pre-shinsa screening procedure of "stamped is banned...unstamped is accepted" for shinsa, so the shinsa team would not even get to see the "banned/rejected" swords...that is the problem. I think it would be a progressive step if this star stamp matter was raised with the swordworld leadership, but there is hope that these swords may start being papered at outside shinsa meetings, so it may come to their attention by this means.

 

It occurrs to me of course that there is an "opposite view" to shinsa-ing star stamped swords...since we know, quite conclusively from records and respected opinion that these are true gendaito and the history of the RJT's who made them are well documented also, is there really any need to have them shinsa'd? The Toshomei and the star is the only shinsa one really needs to know it is gendaito...just a thought!

 

On your last point... the "historical context" of a sword and should it/should it not influence decisions which are essentially about artistic merit has been raised before, but that is moving into the philosophy and politics of swords...so I'll leave that to another discussion.

For my part, I am pleased this matter has been discussed and , I feel, some clarity has been brought to the matter of star stamped swords.

Regards,

George.

I would be interested in some member feedback on this outcome BTW.

[Jamie]

Now obviously you can't shinsa it to Japan, but can you reserve a spot for a NTHK judgement here in the states? They do them at the Kai sometimes right?

[george trotter]

Hi Jamie,

you are correct, Japan is out. Unfortunately I am out here in Western Australia so I can't say anything about the US shinsa scene...but they seem to come up reasonably often...your US memebrs will be able to point you in the right direction for sure.

Regards,

George.