Wanted: Pics of Tadayoshi 1st sword with hoso suguha hamon

[Goldy]

Hi Guys,

 

I'm looking for good quality, close-up pics of any Shodai Tadayoshi blade with a hoso-suguha hamon. If you know of, or have an example of, I'd love for you to share it. Please PM or post links here. I'd personally rather see examples in hand but my location pretty much rules that out.

 

Thanks for your time and help.

 

Cheers,

[Nobody]

Ref. http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00054.html

[Goldy]

Thanks Koichi san,

 

Is that example a hoso-suguha or more chu-suguha? My terminology is based on Mr. Robertshaw's book (pdf) page 74. I was thinking more along the lines of this example:

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to help out.

 

All the best,

[Nobody]

Unfortunately, the hamon in the example which I showed is not pure suguha but a little wavy mixed with gunome.

[Goldy]

Ah yes, I see. Is the Tsuruginoya example in hadori polish? It may be that style that makes the nioi line seem wider than it is to me. The example I posted has a sashikomi polish and clearly shows the small width (hoso?) of the mainly suguha (with ko-notare) hamon. Another example of why it is better to study nihonto with your own eyes rather than somebody else's camera via the 'net.

 

My continued thanks,

[paulb]

Craig,

I think there is some terminology confusion here. (As I have just driven 900+ ks and finally got in it may be mine!!)

Suguha is sometimes defined as Ko or ito if it is particularly narrow. Chu-suguha means the hamon is deeper. Hoso-suguha, I beleive, relates to the structure of the hamon where the edge looks frayed. Someone once described ot to me as looking at the torn edge of a sheet of paper. It is created by ko-nie running through the nioi guchi which in most Tadayoshi blades is quite thick and bright.

It is also a strong characterisitc of the shodai's work which is less frequently seen in subsequent generations.

hope this helps

Regards

Paul

[John A Stuart]

Paul, As far as I know hoso 細 means fine, slender or narrow in this context (it can be a cord) and is properly used to describe a very narrow hamon. Ito 糸 means thread so narrow as in thread like. John

[paulb]

Thanks John, I am sure you are right. it wouldnt be the first time I have misled myself over a lot of years and probably wont be the last

[nagamaki - Franco]

Craig,

I think there is some terminology confusion here. l

 

A suguha hamon described as hotsure, sugu-hotsure, can be characterized as looking like a string of frayed yarn.

 

glossary http://www.sho-shin.com/glossary.htm

[paulb]

Thank you Franco thats where I was getting confused. put it down to increasing years and reduced memory.

regards

Paul

[Goldy]

Thanks guys, nothing like a good cordial, educational discussion. According to my Japanese/English dictionaries the Japanese word for 'thin' is actually 'hosoi', pronounced 'ho-so-i'. Maybe we westerners have bastardised it a little as our culture seems wont to do. Could a native speaker push in for a decisive comment?

 

Anyway, I'm still very keen to see some examples of the Shodai Tadayoshi's blades with the 'thin' suguha hamon. If possible I'd also like to see the mei from the same blade. I know it's asking for a lot and I thank those who make an effort wholeheatedly, especially if they pull an example out of the closet and take some pics.

 

Best regards,

[Eric H]

A katakiriba Wakizashi by Shodai Tadayoshi with hoso-suguha hamon.

Eric

[paulb]

In an attempt to atone for my earlier error please see attached two rather poor photographs of a narrow suguha on a mumei Tadayoshi blade. There has been some debate between various appraisal bodies as to which generation this is. The workmanship suggests the shodai the shape the 4th generation. As can be seen it is not a pure suguha which is more indicative of the 1st than later generations. It also exhibits the "frayed" effect I described earlier with ko-nie falling through the nioi- guchi

hope this helps

regards

Paul

 

 

[Goldy]

Thanks for taking the time to help out Eric and Paul, much appreciated. You can also see the 'hotsure' (frayed edge) on the example I posted. I'd love to see the nie characteristics (location, size, density etc) and any hataraki (especially if it is a papered Shodai Tadayoshi) but I know that's asking quite a bit.

 

If anyone else is also able to help out I'd be very grateful.

 

Thanks,

[Eric H]

Sashikomi could never do the bright, Milky Way like Suguba of a Tadayoshi blade justice.

 

Some pics with hataraki, nie and nioi but other than Tadayoshi. You should better visit Aoi's web-site, his images and oshigata's exhibit fine details in the higher resolution.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/

 

Eric