diferent tanto styles?

[doug e lewis]

Hello all,

 

i have run into terms for different tanto which i cannot localte further info on. while i do more research i thought i would ask NMB

 

most of these came from a 1964 auction catalogue i got from the estate groinlower is selling.

 

tosu - Moroha-zukuri, thin -- like stilletto -- no sori

 

hamidachi - hira-zukri, sight sori, ito or string on tsuka, hamidachi-menuki, kozuka/kogatanna

 

aikuchi - moroha-zukuri, very slight sori, kogai

 

tanto - katainiha-zukuri, hamidashi-menuki, slight sori, kogai/kogatanna

 

they seem to be in assending order of length -- tosu being shortest.

 

i find no mention of these tanto divisions, outside a reference to tosu being mainly a woman's blade.

 

any body able to tell me more or send me to web site that can educate me.

 

thank you.

 

doug e

[Marius]

Hi,

 

1.

tosu were knives, not tanto. Never heard they were only womens' wapon...I think they were worn as a set. I think I can recall that Toshiro Mifune, who was playing Makabe Rukurota, a high ranking samurai general in "Hidden Fortress" by Kurosawa, was wearing several tosu, when ha was walking disguised as a peasant. Have a look here: http://books.google.pl/books?id=vFS2iT8 ... es&f=false

 

 

2.

hamidachi refers to a type of mounting with a tsuba not much bigger than the seppa

 

3.

aikuchi - type of mounting, no tsuba, with fuchi flush with the koi-guchi.

 

4.

tanto - well, any short sword below 30 cm cutting edge was a tanto. It could be aikuchi, hamidachi, yoroi-doshi (armor piercer, refers to thicknes of the tanto), kaiken (short tanto worn mostly by women), etc...

 

5.

katakiriha zukuri - a form of the blade (see: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/styles.html)

 

Hope that helps

[doug e lewis]

helps a bunch,

 

never occured to me that they were just different mounting styles. the catalogue made it seem as size mattered [which we all know -- in some things it does]

 

tosu - as just knife, not sword. ok. but more than utility knife like kogatanna. maybe throwing knife? that would be why one carried several, as our samurai in HIdden Fortress, yes?

 

thank you

 

doug e

[Marius]

helps a bunch,

 

never occured to me that they were just different mounting styles. the catalogue made it seem as size mattered [which we all know -- in some things it does]

 

Yes, it does. But it is sometimes misleading. A large tanto, exceeding 30 cm is, technically speaking, a ko-wakizashi. But then again, it could be a sunnobe tanto or o-tanto.

[doug e lewis]

hi mariusz,

 

the names can be confusing, but enjoyable in the learning.

 

off topic -- i have shown the tsuba you use on NMB to give an examble of good tsuba to friends [mine are --- not so good, to be polite]

 

thank you again

 

doug e

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

tosu - Moroha-zukuri, thin -- like stilletto -- no sori ...OMISSIS...i find no mention of these tanto divisions, outside a reference to tosu being mainly a woman's blade.

 

but more than utility knife like kogatanna. maybe throwing knife? that would be why one carried several, as our samurai in HIdden Fortress, yes?

 

Tosu weren't (at least originally) meant to be a woman's weapon, nor a combat item . The classic samples found in Japan of such early weapons are either of chinese origin or

made adapting the chinese style to Japanese taste, when they become smaller and grouped in a multiple saya.

They were adopted by the T'ang from the Tujue/Gokturk/Ashina and some have a chinese-rhino (once there were rhinos in China) horn handle :

 

 

 

[doug e lewis]

thank you, Carlo, for your attention to my question.

 

what is the source of the drawings below the sword/knives?

do you know of any examples of multple tosu saya i could look at on line?

 

would they -- tosu -- be used as a back up to a samurai's wak or tanto?

 

doug e

[Nobody]

Tosu (刀子) were mainly used by nobles or civil officers as their stationeries or accessories before early Heian or Nara period.

Ref. http://www.narahaku.go.jp/exhibition/20 ... in_01.html

 

These examples are modern reproductions made by a sword smith.

http://www.h5.dion.ne.jp/~kaneru/n-t707.htm

[Nobody]

......

do you know of any examples of multple tosu saya i could look at on line?

 

would they -- tosu -- be used as a back up to a samurai's wak or tanto?

 

doug e

I suspect that something you imagine is not tosu.

[sanjuro]

Doug.

 

Tosu were not a weapon as such, no more than a kozuka is a weapon as such. Neither are a good choice as a weapon, since any prospective opponent would be armed with a better and more suitable blade for fighting. Tosu were in use before long before kozuka were incorporated on a katana, in fact long before there was any such classification of sword as a katana. They are just a utility knife.

Their origin is as Carlo has stated. At the time these would have been in vogue, a samurai would have worn a tachi on the battlefield and a tanto in his obi when at home or engaged in civilian matters. The tosu were worn by both women and men for lesser tasks and as a dress item at court. Tosu worn in groups of three or more would have a variety of blade shapes according to their intended use. This at least is how I understand it.

[John A Stuart]

Here is a reproduction set of Nara period tosu at the Tokyo National Museum of a set at the Shosoin, Nara. The Japanese Sword. John

[ottou812]

Here is a reproduction set of Nara period tosu at the Tokyo National Museum of a set at the Shosoin, Nara. The Japanese Sword. John

 

Looks like steak knives.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

would they -- tosu -- be used as a back up to a samurai's wak or tanto?

 

Moriyama San is right, you're possibly referring to different items. Tosu, even in the multiple-blades saya John has depicted, weren't meant as weapons.

 

Maybe you're referring to the straight type of shuriken, that are different items, not intended as backup for

a Tanto that, I think, was the "extrema ratio" on battlefield.

[doug e lewis]

thank you Moriyam-san & Carlo-san,

 

i must go though my files and find out where i got the notion of tosu being both weapons and primarily for womaen [in Edo period]. amazing the amount of mis-information you get as you 1st start learning more than just traditions of Shoto-kan. i should have asked my sayashi buddy, Mike Virgadamo, as he would have wasted no time setting me straight.

 

and i thought shirken were just "star ninja throwing weapons"

 

thank you again.

 

doug e

[John A Stuart]

手裏剣 【しゅりけん】 (n) shuriken; small throwing blade; small edged weapon often used for throwing, throwing star

Here is a wikipedia entry; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuriken

Tosu are not a type of shuriken. They are only work utensils and a weapon only as much as a kitchen knife could be considered one. John

[Clive Sinclaire]

Mr Lewis

moroha-zukuri,

hira-zukuri

I noticed these terms have not been explained. Moro-ha zukuri is a blade, usually but not exclusively tanto, with two cutting edges whilst hira-zukuri, also usually tanto, is a flat blade with no shinogi.

Clive Sinclaire

[doug e lewis]

Hello Mr. Sinclaire, thank you for taking the time to discuss this thought/image feeling that i got the other day looking at this old nihonto estate auction cataloge i was lucky enough to get on ebay a few weeks ago. novice in everything -- nihonto, ebay ===.

 

To digress, i must thank you for your wonderful book "Samurai Swords", which i just read. i am soon to be forced to devote an entire wall to your writings.

 

i was aware of the structure of the blade which those terms described, but for that reason, and the simple ink drawing in the 1964 auction catalogue showing 3 distinctly different short swords --- with diff. names, the longest appearing to be a tanto i was familar with.

i thought " 3 diff. blades" ah, not so. same tanto in different styles!

 

thank you all for the good time and education.

 

doug e

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Doug, if you are interested in the different types of mountings this article by Guido is a

must-read :

 

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/ja ... rticle.htm

[doug e lewis]

great article, Carlo-san, and very nice to see Dr. T as a co-author. i have read many of his articles; he really knows his stuff.

 

here are the pages which mislead me. hope they show how i was confused.

 

doug e

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

great article, Carlo-san,

 

Thanks for your kindness Doug, but i don't deserve the the prefix -san.

[doug e lewis]

i think you earned it.

 

these are the pages which led me astray.

 

doug e

[Jean]

but i don't deserve the the prefix -san.

 

Been away for two days and coming back I caught you redhanded, Carlo.

 

Reading the post, I notice that Doug used the sufix and not the prefix -san, your are not (yet) sanctified and Doug did not try to make you look as one :lol: :lol:

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Yes, sorry, used the wrong word.

[doug e lewis]

Thank you for pointing that out, Jean-san.

 

or is that Jean no Kami?

 

doug e

[Jean]

Doug,

 

It is Jean tout court