Russo-Japanese war swords- cut down nakago?

[simonjbinks]

I am presntly seriously considering a sowrd that looks as though it could e good. It is in Russo-Japanese mounts, but has a Mon and a good gold foil habaki.

 

I have just purchased another Russo katana, very long and beefy blade with bo hi on one side and futatsu-hi on the other, both seemingly well cut. Unquestionable hand made in suguha, but all else is obscure.

 

Amongst my many swords over the years, I have only had on Russo-Japanese war sword, and that was an average sword I quickly sold, so I don't recall the special treatment that these swords must have had. They were cavalry swords for use with only one hand, so it would seem logical that a long nakago, intended for a two-handed tsuka, must be cut down to fit in a one-handed mounting.

 

It's a fair size blade, 28 1/2 inch Nagasa. The one I have already bought is 29" Nagasa but much wider, thicker with the bo hi and futatsu hi.

 

So my questions seems to have an obvious answer. These katanas must have had the Nakago shortened to fit into a single-handed Russo-Japanese handle, correct?

 

Does anybody think that this would devalue the blade, as to have it mounted properly again, one must move the machi up and therefore loose some of the polished blade? I would like to get these mounted up. Having been out of the game for so long, I will put up questions about you could be recommended when the time is right.

 

The one I have already bought (but not yet received) looks particularly interesting. I have never seen a blade with bo hi on one side and futatsu hi on the other, at least not in a katana of 29" Nagasa.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Simon

[george trotter]

Simon,

as I am first cab off the rank, may I suggest (at risk of bringing down the wrath of the gods) as follows:...

Firstly, it is my personal opinion that the Russo-Japanese War mounts are part of the sword's history. As a historically minded person, I consider it a backward step to discard the mounts and re-mount in any other koshirae. I would ask that you keep the fittings with the sword, and perhaps have the blade mounted in shirasaya to prevent further contact with dirt/old oil etc etc. If you separate and discard the fittings, the sword becomes...what?...another mumei blade in "added later" mounts...who wants that. regardless of the period the blade was made, its last "working" fittings are gunto koshirae of the 1894-1934 period...a genuine proof that the sword was actually used for its intended purpose...no offense intended to anyone's belief system, but this is my advice.

Secondly, in my experience, a number of blades have been shortened considerably to fit these Kyugunto mounts. Some hav egakumei or somesuch, or are o-suriage. Your tang shows that it is shaped to fit the mounts' curving tsuka, being "saki fuseru" (reverse curvature)..not common at all.

Thirdly, if you adopt the advice I give in (1), you won't have to reshape/machi okuri the nakago (I hope you leave it as it is). If not, you will be opening a new chapter in the life history of the sword...it will hereafter be classified as "nakago altered in modern times"...this will probably devalue the blade.

Hope this gives food for thought...

Regards,

George.

[Mark]

I think the length of the handle was a choice, i have a Russo sword with a very long handle that could be used with 2 hands so i do not think it was required to cut the nakago down. I think it was more a reflection of the times, sword wearing was recently banned and blades were plentiful

[Grey Doffin]

I agree (mostly) with George. Shortening the blade further would be a mistake, from the preservation aspect and the financial one as well. If the sword is not to be polished there is no reason I can think of not to leave it as is, in the koshirae. If it is to be polished then it goes to shira-saya and a tsunagi holds the koshirae together.

The one alteration I would consider, and I'm not sure if this would be advisable or even possible, is to have the nakago bent backwards to reestablish the concave curvature on the nakago mune. It seems that this might give the nakago a more conventional sugata (the reverse curvature of the present nakago bothers me) and it wouldn't require the removal of steel.

But, as I said, I don't know if this should be done. Can we have some other opinions? Ted, what would a polisher do about this?

Grey

[huntershooter]

Bravo George. I am in agreement with your comments.

I too, have a Kyu Gunto mounted blade which appears to be Kanbun Shinto (mumei). The Nakago is ubu, the mounts (tsuka) have "two hands" capability.

[simonjbinks]

Dear George and all,

 

Thank you for your opinions.

 

You raise an interesting point. Please allow me to raise a counter-point.

 

This is a contentious matter but an important one, so I see no point in skirting around it. We are discussing various war mountings as important historical records of the history of the swords in question.

 

I collect Nihonto for the art involved, nothing to do with wars or militaria. Whilst such topics are important from an historical point of view; ie: war is absurd and nobody really wins; governments or dictators send young men away to die over points of greed, arrogance or in the case of WW1; fundamentally a family feud between the Royal families of Germany and England, for which 8,556,315 people died, almost as many missing or POW's.

 

It appalls me to think that over 2 million Japanese were killed during world war two, 350,000 of them civilians, woman, children, the old. I don't want to be reminded of that whilst enjoying the art of such cultured people

 

I am the greatest fan of Japanese culture but an unfortunate byproduct of the feudal system was what caused the crazed few who led the military into a war that they couldn't possibly have won. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, who did his duty as he saw it, sighed upon the return of the planes that bombed Pearl Harbour and stated "I fear all we have done is wake a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible rage". Yamamoto was a student of Morihei Ueshiba, Japan's most celebrated martial artist of the time and founder of the gentle art of Aikido. Osensei Ueshiba stopped teaching officers and was vocal in his objection to the war, the rising death toll causing him physical illness.

 

Only someone of his stature and respect could have taken such a stand in the Japan of 1938-45, a country of gentle people run by crazed, arrogant military leaders.

 

Emperor Hirohito tried to surrender through the Russians, but Stalin being the brutal dictator that he was, never delivered the message to the Allies.

 

Then we have Manchuko and the horrendous bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima:

Hiroshima Nagasaki

Pre-raid population 255,000 195,000

Dead 66,000 39,000

Injured 69,000 25,000

Total Casualties 135,000 64,000

 

Total Japanese deaths, military and civillian, is estimated at 2,700,000, 3.78% of the population, according to my research.

 

I have never been to Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I look at Japanese children and can't allow myself to think of what occurred.

 

The Japanese feudal system was not an ideal political model, but one must ask what would have happened had Commodore Matthew Perry not forced Japan into International trade through gunship diplomacy. As a rule, the Japanese psyche doesn't forget, even generations later.

 

All military mounts were factory made, no art was involved except on the drawing board.

 

So when I decide to polish or remount a sword, I choose not to remember what Shin Gunto and Sino/Russo Japanese mounts represent. I throw the mountings away, as did the Japanese for many years when swords were sent for polish in Gunto mounts.

 

I see nothing to celebrate in the reminders of wars begun by the few, that led to the death of many.

 

Most swords before ShinShinto we find have been mounted many times.

 

They were mounted again for the wars discussed.

 

I choose not to keep reminders of these atrocities around. I mount my swords, when I can, in Buke-Zukuri mounts, hand made using old Kodugu, reminiscent of the more peaceful era of Japan's turbulent history. We all know what happened, in varying degrees of interest. My father accepted the Japanese surrender at Rabaul. I have pictures of the Japanese officers handing their swords over of the deck of Dad's Aircraft Carrier. I taunted him for years about not bringing some back.

 

I choose to not surround myself with memories of it. Rather, the beauty of Japanese art.

 

I got both swords by the way, the beefy 28 1/2" Nagasa blade with Bo Hi on one side and Futatsu Hi on the other, and the much more slender blade of 29" Nagasa with Bo Hi, a gold habaki and the Mon as previously pictured.

 

I paid a relatively high price for the second, considering it was Ebay and I can see very little of it in the photographs (some of which I will attempt to upload), but I just had to have it.

 

I'm in the interesting position where I have two Russo Japanese war swords. Obviously I can't tell anything until I see them but from the shape of the #2 katana, it seems slender with little sori and I get the feeling Koto. The shallow sori and beefy nature of the 1st sword with Futatsu Hi on one side and Bo Hi on the other, tends to point to ShinShinto, but again, I get the feeling that it is Koto. I had a nice old Osuriage Koto blade reminiscent of what I can see of this blade.

 

Having had the nakago's totally reshaped makes placing Jidai really difficult.

 

Just my opinion. Now for a polish.

 

Sincerely,

 

Simon.

 

 

 

[george trotter]

Simon san, Thanks for the time you took to explain your philosophical position regarding war and militarism...I certainly respect your right to your beliefs. I take it that you will probably go ahead and separate the blades from their fittings...so be it, that is your prerogative...I just make one more plea in regards to swords and their fittings as expressions of art (as you mentioned). Although the current mounts are military I think they should stay together as expressions of art as well as history...I think you will find that an art museum always tries to keep a portrait or painting of any type, school etc, in the frame it was originally mounted in or found with. In art circles, the frame or "context" of an artwork is considered of prime importance to the placing of the artwork into its "mileau", or contemporary history context. An art curator, would not dream of taking a Picasso or a Cezanne out of its contemporary frame to put into an older or a more recent frame...heresy! Similarly, a Rembrandt found in a contemporary frame would also be kept together...with respect, I just ask that you consider the question in terms of art...your ultimate decision of course, will be respected.

Not trying to be argumentative of your views, but to show you an alternative view that may be valid also...or not...

Respectfully,

George.

[Takahashi]

Dear Simon,

 

I can only agree with George and hope you will not get rid of the gunto mounts.

 

I also understand your attitude towards war and militarism. As a german I know very good what it means to carry an (inhuman) historical burden of facism and militarism but IMHO it should not be up to decide by ourselves to destroy old weapons and accessories.

 

Who actually really knows what people in the future might think is historically important or worthy of preservation?

 

I just want to remind you that the Nihonto you are referring to as art were originally invented as weapons to kill people. This was the reason why the US forces tried to destroy them after WW2.

 

I am fully aware that traditionally forged swords and mounts are not to be compared to standard mounts but then again muromachi blades and mounts are also considered to be mass produced. I still appreciate them - not as weapons but as historically interesting artifacts.

By the way I do not believe that the production methods used to produce gunto mounts can be regarded as todays mass production methods.

 

Cheers,

[watsonmil]

Dear Simon,

I too abhor war, .... to do otherwise would be inconceivable. It must be remembered however that without remembering the past errors of man in this case .. war, ... we allow ourselves the possibilty, .... no I' ll re-phrase that with " the certainty " of repeating it. Probably the ONLY thing that kept us from Nuclear War up till now is the fact that both the major powers post WWII not only remembered the horrors of war, but actually actually participated ( both Kennedy and Kruschev ). Sadly as time goes by, ... man's memory falters to the point that it might well happen again. Hopefully, by keeping those memories alive vis a vis the preservation of the " artifacts " of war ... which one can physically see and feel, the realities of the horror are not " abstract " as we see all too often in the Video Games depicting " war " as something that can be turned " on or off ".

It must also be remembered that we are only " guardians " of these artifacts .... be they Picasso's or Nihonto. None of us will leave this world with our treasured swords in-hand. They will be passed on to someone else to study and wonder over. Should we not therefore pass them on as we received them. There is nothing wrong with improving the physical appearance ( polish, ... fittings ), ... but to throw away history because you disapprove is not going to change the past. I see nothing particularily wrong with your choice to mount the sword as you see fit, .... after all you paid the " rent ". I hope you re-consider throwing away the mounts and set them aside for a future owner however ... it really can't hurt, .... and may well be a learning experience to a futue owner for exactly the reasons you desire.

Kind regards, ... Ron Watson

[moss]

Gidday Simon,

when you decide to throw away the military fittings off your blades please PM me !!!!!!!!!!!

I will kindly take them off your hands and help you out .I'm so nice I will give you some$$$$$

While I don't agree with separating things from a historical point of view ,I am sure this has happened before and will happen again.

Next time you're in Brizzy I'll buy you a XXXX

 

Cheers Moss

[Weidas]

i saw this sword on e-bay and considered in participating in bidding, however decided not to. Pity. If i knew that buyer will decide to change mounts, i guess i'd try to obtain it. It saddens to know that the sword will loose its recent history..

 

just wanted to add - nihonto only relatively recently(from the point of view of all its history) started to be considered as art. Before that it was weapon, be it feudal or modern army, period shinto or gendaito. Therefore, Simon, if you are so anti-anti militaristic, you should stop looking into history of nihonto at all.

[Brian]

My own opinion..

If you want to put it into mounts, go ahead. But keep the wartime ones held by a tsunagi nearby. In 100 years from now, those mounts will be antique and not common at all.

As for modifying the blade to remount it..hell no!

How many times have we wished a Shinshinto or Shinto wasn't suriage? Now you have the chance to make sure one isn't modified further...don't do it.

Although already modified, no sense in doing more damage. Just my 2c.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

Hi Simon,

 

Marching past the views on militarism and conflict, I'll comment on the swords themselves and my opinion on their care and feeding.

 

First, regarding their prior alteration for the Kyu-Gunto koshirae; nakago don't necessarily need to be of any specific length to be suitable for remounting. Many nakago were shortened, but the degree of which is subjective as some Kyu-Gunto mounts do have long handles. I suspect this was a matter of choice for the purchasing officer who's duties may allow or preclude having a longer handle. So altering them really depends on the existing length of the nakago *and* the intended purpose of mounting. Back in the day, even the working man's sword had a nakago that extended roughly two thirds to three quarters the length of the tsuka on average. If we look at some of the stubby Bizen nakago, and many tanto such as Sue-Soshu, Ise, etc., they may only extend half the length of the nakago as one must consider the habaki, seppa, tsuba, and tenjogane of the fuchi also take up a measure of length from the machi. So mounting considerations have some leeway, and also some limiting considerations such as whether the chosen fittings will allow the existing mekugiana to be utilized.

 

Second, from a preservation standpoint; further alterations incur loss of length, loss of visable workmanship (which in the case of many schools could mean the loss of identifiable characteristic features), and also valuation.

 

Third, from an economic standpoint; there's costs incurred for the actual work to alter the sword that really doesn't bring much value added to it unless it's matter of reparing damage. Shortening it means the habaki will fit poorly, if at all. So money to alter, on top of purchasing, on top of mountings, on top of having them professionally mounted with lacquer, tsukamaki, etc., etc.. The bill gets pretty tall quite fast, and I rarely see this kind of effort justified in equitable valuation in the end, not to mention the wait, the risk of transit between craftsmans, insurance, postage, packaging. Take the total and look for something really nice, done, and with immediate gratification.

 

As for keeping the mounts with the blades; In general, I tend to believe that it is a good idea, but it's an arguable choice which depends on the interest of the owner. The mounts are military sidearms, not fuedal era koshirae. So they tend to appeal more to the militaria collector interests. The same is true with any later Gunto mounts. Yes, part of history, but not Feudal history. What I do tend to see is that if the mounts are particularly high quality, then they tend to stay with the sword in lieu of separation and loss, while lesser quality are cast away as chaff, which the militaria collectors (no offense intended to those of that focus) will generally pick up for their area of interest.

 

Where the rubber meets the road is that the quality and importance of the sword (or lack thereof) should be the ultimate roadpost in determining how it should best be treated and preserved.

 

Just my thoughts.