Seppa

[Justin Grant]

What is the currently held belief on the use of Seppa when it comes to "restoring" a nihonto. Should they be period correct, or just material correct? In my novice trek thru this world, I have seen plenty of period correct parts to purchase, but not Seppa. Why is this?

 

Thanks

 

Justin

[Mark]

i think in the past (1945-recent) seppa were not thought of as important and were discarded or mixed up and used as needed so a lot have been lost. I have a few set i have put a side over the years so i will have some if i need to mount a sword, i bet quite a few collectors do the same, so that limits the availiblity. I put a nice gold foil set on ebay last week (item # 250589471959 ) check them out, it will be interesting to see if they get many bids.

[Justin Grant]

Lets see how I do!

 

Thanks Mark.

 

Justin

[Basho12]

As someone else neck-deep in a restoration project, I'm also curious if there is a consensus among more experienced collectors on this. Do most people hold onto them for future use, as Mark does? A few do turn up on eBay now and again, true, but how important is it? I know it's desirable to use period fittings whenever possible, but it's a given that certain portions of the koshirae are going to be replacements (horn parts go missing, and honoki, ito, and rayskin get a bit dicey after a few hundred years), and seppa are just about the most strictly utilitarian component of the entire mounting.

[sanjuro]

The seppa as noted are really just a utilitarian item, but period seppa would always be better IMHO. I have several old seppa I keep for remounting just as many collectors do, particularly those with foiling on them, because you just never know when you may need such things. The size is somewhat critical though , and all seppa are not suitable for all swords. Ideally, unless its for a tachi, only the edge of the seppa should protrude beyond the fuchi or the koiguchi line. An interesting little trick was revealed to me by a collector friend however.

 

Forced by necessity to find seppa for a sword he was partially restoring. Fuchi and seppa were found to be in one instance damaged and in the case of a single seppa, missing altogether. In this instance the seppa was a plain copper type with the common scalloped edge. unable to find a good match for the existing original seppa, he ended up making his own. The scalloped edge can be done carefully with fine files (Hobbyist or Jeweller's files) by even a non handy type of person. You end up however with a bright copper seppa that looks totally out of place on the sword. In time of course the copper dulls and patinates but it can be 'encouraged'. The solution (pun not intended), is a mixture of lemon juice and water (about 50% lemon juice or more), in a small container. Just put the seppa in it and wait until it forms a black scale on the surface of the copper, (only a minute or two depending on the strength of the solution). The black scale rubs off with your finger under running water and leaves patinated copper behind. The finished job is very original looking and hard to tell from an original old seppa.

[Basho12]

Thanks for the tip. I'm probably going to end up making at least one new seppa, just to get the fit right on the habaki side.

[sanjuro]

Richard.

 

I have heard that neat brown vinegar does the same job. I havent tried that one, because the lemon juice does it so well for me. It is the sort of thing you can try a number of times on the same piece. just polish it back up again, clean it in a spirit of some kind (Methylated) wash it dry it and throw it back into the solution. If you want a very aged look, dont rub off all the black scale but leave it in the low spots on the edge crenellations. With a bit of practice you can vary the patination with the strength of the solution. I have an old copper tanto tsuba of no worth whatever which had a rub mark on the mimi. I painted it with the lemon juice solution let it stand a while then washed it. You could still see the edge faintly where it blended in to the old original patina, so I put the whole thing in the solution without cleaning it and presto! everything was even and exactly the same patina after it had a thorough wash in cold water. The old original patina was not effected by the lemon juice at all. The result was so good that a friend of mine offered to purchase it.

[Ford Hallam]

I hesitate to comment on some of the suggestions offered here for fear of offending ( I know, it's not like me..but I'm really trying to be a nice guy this year ) but I feel a warning may be in order.

 

Essentially, both vinegar and lemon juice are acids and as such are particularly effective for removing patina. I would strongly advise against the use of any such "kitchen sink" remedies for copper re-patination as any existing colour will most certainly be damaged and the likelihood of any convincing patina ( ie suitable terracotta or reddish brown tones) redeveloping, is in my opinion, highly unlikely.

 

A further consideration, especially in relation to habaki and seppa, is that if any residue of vinegar or lemon juice should remain locked in the surface of the copper (this is not that unusual, even after washing in clean water) there exists a very real possibility of corrosion being stimulated on the steel of the blade they may be mounted on.

 

regards,

 

fh

[sanjuro]

OK ...... so theres my suggestion gone to hell in a handcart! :? So how come the lemon juice solution works so well Ford? I usually treat these kitchen sink remedies with a similar disdain. Had I not experimented with bits of scrap copper before trying it, I never would have believed it would work as well as it did.

I dont for one moment doubt your observation on this, but I have a sword that I have owned and loved for many years which has a seppa I made for it and treated in this way. If anything, the patina on this seppa has deepened a little over the years. The only cleaning the seppa has ever received after being treated (if I remember correctly) was a wash between the hands with a very mild soap and water with no ill effect. Your post here sent me running with a sense of rising panic, to check if there had been any effect to the blade on which it is mounted and there was none (thank God). (Thanks for that... My blood pressure hasnt been the same since!)

 

Incidentally, I wasnt suggesting that an old seppa or anything else that was genuine for that matter, could be repatinated in this way. Only that a new raw copper seppa could be 'aged' by this process. There would be no need to apply this method to old patinated copper. My old damaged but patinated tsuba as mentioned, suffered no ill effects but was potentially a sacrificial guinea pig in this instance.

[Basho12]

My restoration project has a long way to go, and no doubt I'll make mistakes along the way no matter how careful I am or how informed I try to be. When that happens I won't blame anyone but myself. I appreciate all the opinions and experiences the folk here care to share.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Keith,

 

sorry for causing you any alarm. To be honest I have no idea how you manage to get lemon juice to patinate copper

 

I've actually got another goldsmith here with me at the moment ( Karl Wunderlich, from Berlin) and we were both baffled by what you'd experienced. So much so that I had a moment of doubt about my own understanding of the working of patina formation. I know, I know....you'll all be shocked to hear I entertained a doubt so I checked the lemon juice and water approach myself. The results were exactly what I would have predicted. No black scale development, no colour at all...only bright pink copper. I then took the copper out of the solution and left it, wet, to air dry during the afternoon. The result was some light brown staining and finally, where the liquid finally evaporated, a pale green powdery deposit.(a copper salt corrosion product)

[John A Stuart]

Lemon juice, citric acid. Vinegar, acetic acid. At least vinegar would produce copper acetate, verdigris. Forced like that would be easily rubbed off. The copper when in the vinegar would produce copper acetate into solution, so the longer it is kept in the vinegar the more copper would be dissolved. Proper patination formulae abound. The only self help for copper was a process I had seen used on copper church roofs. The fellows after repairing the roofs would urinate on the newly installed copper sheet and spread it about with an old rag-mop. Apparrently this had been done for centuries to blend new copper to the old verdigrised sheet. It sped up the process only. I suspect a good piss-up the day before may have helped with the solution. John

[ironron]

I agree with ford..Citric acid ie..lemon juice will strip patina of off copper,

If you want to repatinate ...use Liberons Tourmaline ..black or brown

[cisco-san]

Very interesting comments - especially John´s :?

By the way, how many seppas are "allowed" on a sword. I have one sword which needs more than two seppas on each side and I never saw a sword with e.g. six seppas?!

[Ford Hallam]

just a little update...

 

Keith asked me to test a variation on his lemon juice approach that he may have used. This involved heating te copper first and quenching it in the lemon juice solution. The result was pretty much the same as I'd expect it I simply plunged the copper in water. A blotchy pattern of various oxides and areas of bare metal. Sorry Keith but I reckon your memory must be playing tricks on you. Lemon juice is a non-starter as far as I can see.

 

John,

 

domestic vinegar only contains about 5% acetic acid but I placed a small piece of clean copper in a dish with vinegar this morning. After 8 hours there's been absolutely no change to the copper or the vinegar. Worse...it then tasted terrible on my chips although my arthritis seems somewhat soothed

 

so...we're left with John's suggestion to urinate on the copper....someone taking the pith? ...oh! and don't fall off the roof while doing it

[John A Stuart]

Good one, Ford. I wouldn't suggest trying it. These were old-timers 50 yrs ago and specialists in the trade, steeplejacks. We've lost that heritage for the most part, just regular grafters now. John

[Stephen]

could they have been brass instead of copper? or would that make a difference?

[Alex A]

Ive just had new copper seppa made for a wakizashi, i didnt want any fit issues, there are old seppa on ebay but for me taking a risk buying a tsuba that doesnt fit is enough heart ache, without adding to the problem. I dont think i will bother to try and change the patina, looks fine and will age in time.

 

Alex.

[christianmalterre]

this smart gentleman shurely had the right "recepture"...

Ask him!

"Most essential book for the modern Witchcook"....Real Magic inside.....keep care!

[raiden]

On the original post, usually in Japan if on a good koshirae, and seppa are missing, they usually have a top grade shokunin make the seppa the correct size to fit both the width, as well as the fit to the koiguchi and fuchi diameter. Seppa when done properly have a perfect fitand are done so to compliment the mount. It degrades the koshirae when the seppa are either too small or hanging out wider than they should be. If one notices, in all nice well made original koshirae, the seppa fit perfectly.People tend to take this point for granted, but in Japan, detail and pride is everything.Ford is also correct to point out the right and wrong way to do things, especially if they will do the blade harm.

[raiden]

original bakumatsu koshirae for a Koyama Munetoshi, notice the perfect way the seppa fit and accent the mount.

[Alex A]

Glad i did it right Mike, seppa will fit fuchi perfectly.

 

Alex.

[george trotter]

Very interesting comments - especially John´s :?

By the way, how many seppas are "allowed" on a sword. I have one sword which needs more than two seppas on each side and I never saw a sword with e.g. six seppas?!

 

Klaus...usually there are just two seppa on a buke zukuri mount...if you need four it may be that the original tsuba has been changed and a thinner one put on.

 

Tachi mounts usually have four seppa and possibly six.

WWII gunto of good quality mounts often have 6 and 8 seppa.

IMHO seppa are an important indicator of the standard/quality of the fittings,

(like nakago...attention to hidden nakago finish = pride in work. Same with seppa).

I know this is not buke zukuri, but quality is quality...here is pic of good quality kikuza seppa on 1944 gunto mounts).

Reagrds,

[Barrie B]

This question is mainly directed at Ford, as I have seen his beautiful Seppa, but are the fine notches around the edge (seen on good quality Seppa, not Gunto seppa) actually filed, or are they chiselled? I find it amazing that something made by hand can be so uniform.. Is there a trick to it? Don’t worry Ford, not trying to put you out of a job..! Just curious and amazed at your skill, ..and theirs of course.. How long would it have taken someone to make them a hundred or more years ago and who would have been tasked to do it in Edo (or earlier) times..? Is this a separate specialty carried out by the Tsuka specialists to complete the Koshirae, or would any young kinko apprentice be commissioned to make them to (also) improve his hand skills? Anyone know..? Any thoughts?

 

Barrie.