Royalty handling a sword

[Veli]

Here’s a description of the incident that took place in the imperial palace in Tokyo, during the visit of the Prince of Wales in Japan (in 1922), as recorded by the first envoy of Finland in Japan, professor Ramstedt, in his memoirs:

 

(My apologies for the quality of the translation)

 

"The festival hall was being filled by the diplomatic corps as well as by the formally dressed audience entering via another door. Everyone was seated in a semicircle of chairs, until there was not a single seat vacant. In front of the audience there was the stage, where, unlike on western stages, improvisation replaced the scenes.

 

The play was a typical Noh-play, a conversational piece written in historical, traditional Japanese way, providing very little entertainment for those not fluent in Japanese language. The Prince of Wales, seated in the first row, soon grew tired watching the play, and started to inspect the ornaments of the gorgeous and rare Japanese sword that he had been presented. Again and again he partially unsheathed the sword and repeatedly knocked the floor with it."

 

 

BR, Veli

[paulb]

If I have my dates right that Prince of Wales must have become Edward 7th. the one who abdicated in the 1930s. Not one of our better Monarchs!

[Nobody]

Edward VIII: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95% ... n_1922.jpg

 

Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VII ... ed_Kingdom

[paulb]

Thank you Moriyama-san, too many Edwards in our Royal family in too short a time. still I was only one generation out!

Best

Paulb

[loui]

Winning the hearts and minds.

[sanjuro]

I guess just because you are 'so called' royalty, It doesnt necessarily mean that you are either culturally sensitive or even in possession of common sense. The presentation of a rare sword no matter how beautifully mounted would be nothing more to the British royalty than a mere gesture, a gesture that was entirely expected by them as their due. Just another addition to the vast collection of such things that the Royal family has accumulated.

 

What a waste of a sword!!!!!!

[sensei215]

Thank you Moriyama-san. The information was enlightening especially to a poor commoner in the old colonies. Such a waste of a good sword. I wonder if anyone knows what happened to it?

 

Tim S

[Veli]

Here's some information provided by Clive Sinclaire:

 

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/giftspresentations.htm

 

 

"...presented to the British Prince of Wales during a visit to Hiroshima in 1922.The sword was sold in a London auction room in June 1997 for a reasonably modest price and is now believed to be in Scandinavia."

 

I wonder if this was the sword mentioned by professor Ramstedt; Would the prince have carried it with him from Hiroshima to the imperial palace???

 

BR, Veli

[paulb]

I guess just because you are 'so called' royalty, It doesnt necessarily mean that you are either culturally sensitive or even in possession of common sense. The presentation of a rare sword no matter how beautifully mounted would be nothing more to the British royalty than a mere gesture, a gesture that was entirely expected by them as their due. Just another addition to the vast collection of such things that the Royal family has accumulated.

 

What a waste of a sword!!!!!!

 

_________________

 

Keith, Let me start by saying I am not a supporter or any great fan of the UK Royal Family. However there are many, not only in the UK but also Canada, Australia etc who are. I think your negative comment a huge generalisation which is neither justified or fair. it is of a similar vein to "All Australians are criminals"

I think most would agree that this particular Edward was an insensitive self centred individual with little or no merit. but to make such statements about all our Royal family based on him is rediculous.

Perhaps a little thought before sharing your political hang ups might be worthwhile?

regards

paul

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I remember the sword that was presented to POW on his visit the Naval base at Kure near Hiroshima, in May 1922. I still have the nakago only oshigata (which I will put on the UK Sword Register at http://www.to-ken.com) and remember thinking that although it was OK, the sword by Hiraga Morikuni, was not of outstanding quality.It was Mino in style with a sanbon-tsugi hamon and it was commissioned by a local magazine, based in Kure and entitled Kure Kuron. It was, as already stated, sold at auction for a relatively modest price.

Clive

PS:I actually bought a sword and a tsuba at a London Arms Fair yesterday - the first purchase in nearly 3 years - joy and sake at the Sinclaire household!

[sanjuro]

Paulb

 

My statement was an observation, and the excercising of my right to free speech. It was not a political statement born of any political hang ups at all. I did not express my opinion of the royal family as a whole but rather of the perceived attitudes of the royal family of that era. However, if you wish to take me to task over my comment, please do so by PMing me, not on a public forum where it is entirely bad form.

[John A Stuart]

Guys, I've noticed lately that there has been some personal interaction better handled by private means. If someone is offended and/ or thinks someone else might be offended, PM the poster and present the difficulties to them. In most cases, to promote tranquillity, they would edit their own post. If an impasse is reached then outside help may be required. We all should be moderating ourselves and understanding of the various backgrounds we all have. It is the gentlemanly way. John

[Clive Sinclaire]

(which I will put on the UK Sword Register at http://www.to-ken.com

Oops! I see it is already there

Clive

[loui]

We take handling swords for granted mainly because most of us have learned what is proper and what isn't. The fact that a westerner handled a sword improperly and didn't follow any type of "protocol" isn't at all surprising to me.

 

I made a presentation a couple of years ago at a gallery here to a large group of people - including the Japanese ambassador to Canada - he knew absolutely nothing about swords and he wouldn't even attempt to hold them, almost like a guy trying to not hold a baby. One might think he was just distancing himself from the sword due to its past and wanted to avoid controversy but I think he just didn't know anything about handling a sword - surprising? Nope.

 

Louis

[David Flynn]

All Aussies are crims. We're born with chain marks around our ankles

[reinhard]

Things haven't changed much in the meantime. Nobody told Tiger about etiquette or protocol when he was presented with a NihonTo in 1997 in Japan.

 

reinhard

[Veli]

I see now the wisdom in many of the gift sword blades being of low to medium quality...

 

 

BR, Veli

[reinhard]

I see now the wisdom in many of the gift sword blades being of low to medium quality...

 

It was a mozo (imitation) blade he received (see pic). Obviously for good reasons. But that's not what it is all about. Handling a katana in public in Japan is different from doing so in the rest of the world; no matter what kind or quality it is. To most Japanese people every katana is like a loaded gun. It has to be treated with utmost respect and it's better to stay away from it. This attitude might also explain the reaction of the Japanese ambassador described by Mr.Skebo. - BTW, the ceremony started according to protocol.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

Thats Tiger for you..... Just doesnt know when to put it away and leave well enough alone!

[george trotter]

Do my eyes deceive me or is the Ambassador handing over the sword with the cutting edge towards Tiger?

 

Just wondering,

George.

[loui]

I see now the wisdom in many of the gift sword blades being of low to medium quality...

 

It was a mozo (imitation) blade he received (see pic). Obviously for good reasons. But that's not what it is all about. Handling a katana in public in Japan is different from doing so in the rest of the world; no matter what kind or quality it is. To most Japanese people every katana is like a loaded gun. It has to be treated with utmost respect and it's better to stay away from it. This attitude might also explain the reaction of the Japanese ambassador described by Mr.Skebo. - BTW, the ceremony started according to protocol.

 

reinhard

 

You could be right Reinhard, there were probably a few other reasons as well.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[george trotter]

For the sake of furthering this discussion about ignorance of sword etiquette and protocol I ask again...

Do my eyes deceive me or is the Japanese gentleman handing over the sword with cutting edge towards Tiger Woods...if so, is this in accordance with correct etiquette and protocol?

 

George.

[cisco-san]

As I know from Iaido there are several possibilities:

 

1:

Cutting edge towards the guy who get the sword, handle towards the bottom.

This means, I do not trust the opposite

and this is the correct way how to take over a sword for Kantei (see PIC1).

 

2:

Cutting edge towards the presenter or upwards, handle on the right site (from presenter point of view).

This means, I do not really trust you (handle on the left site, the opposite can´t immediately draw the sword) but with respect (cutting edge towards presenter) (see PIC2).

 

3:

Cutting edge upwards (very common) or to the presenter (but I never saw it in real life) , handle on the left site (from presenter point of view).

This means, I fully trust and respect you (handle on the left site, the opposite can immediately draw the sword) (sorry no PIC too).

 

But as mentioned above, I never saw to present a sword with cutting edge toward the opposite guy Maybe our friends from Japan can fill this lack of knowledge.

 

I hope that I made no mistake

 

I think the real correct way is very hard even for Japanese and for non Japanese people it is like a science. Sometimes very small variation of an act decides for o.k. nor not o.k.

[george trotter]

Thanks for the comments Cisco san...

I asked this question, because when looking at pics of WWII Japanese officers surrendering their swords to British and Australian officers, I can only remember one pic where the sword is being handed over with ha towards the British/Aust officer, and as you mention Cisco san, I think the handle was to the British/Aust officer's left - the opposite of the pic of Tiger woods - (but my memory might be wrong on this). Maybe I'm wrong, but I always remembered this pic as showing deliberate (unspoken) disrespect? to the Allies, as all other sword surrender pics I remember were either done mune towards Allies, or in sword bags, or laid on the ground handle towards Allies/kissaki towards Japanese officer.

Can one of the members clarify this point of etiquette and protocol?

Regards,

George.

[sanjuro]

Generally speaking, a sheathed sword is presented in a manner that is non threatening to the person receiving it, Whether he is trusted or not. This being the case, then the edge is always toward the presenter, (no implied threat or statement of mistrust)

As far as trusting the person you are presenting the sword to, Convention says that you only hand a sword to a trusted person. After all, would you hand a sword to someone you didnt trust at least enough not to draw it and cut you down the moment he received it? The hilt to the left of the receiver is usual just as a measure of safety.

There are numerous and sometimes conflicting rules about this sort of thing, according to the martial Ryu you may belong to. Usually the differences and little nuances were dreamed up by samurai in the Edo period when they had nothing better to do than ritualise every aspect of budo and the handling of a sword.

 

To answer Georges question, yes you are correct and the edge is facing the receiver also the hilt is to the right of the receiver which is totally wrong. Bear in mind however, that unless the presenter has been coached in the correct form or is from a samurai family, it is unlikely he would be aware of any of this. Its a common misconception that all Japanese know these details of sword etiquette.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

About sword etiquette (without errors)

 

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/Swordhandling.htm

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi,

 

About sword etiquette (without errors)

 

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/Swordhandling.htm

 

I see I have been quoted again, that's twice on this thread, such close scrutiny is quite flattering but rather daunting. Unfortunately in Grey's pictures it is not clear to me who is the giver and who is the recipient. However, I would recommend attending Grey's etiquete lectures at the San Francisco Taikai if you can make it. I would also emphasise that correct etiquette is even more important for non-Japanese than for Japanese. Your sword handling is often watched closely and commented upon when in Japan and you carry the gaijin's reputation with you.

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[Stephen]

Grey is the receiver in first photo and presenter in the second as I see it.

for those who don't know Grey is on the left.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Guess the problem in the first picture is with use of left versus right hand and Stephen is right about the receiver as the Ha must face the giver.

Also the positioning of both persons' hands on the tsuka looks reversed but maybe there are different opinions on this...

 

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

On the left picture, if Grey is the giver he is wrong (tsuka must be on his left, on the right picture there are both wrong (the giver must hold the nakago closed to the nakago jiri with his left hand)