Echigo no Kami Kanesada and Date?

[SwordGuyJoe]

All,

Before I blindly ask for assistance on the name, I came up with Echigo (no) Kami Kanesada. Am I right?

 

 

I do need help with the date. The second character is difficult to decipher. Can you please help?

 

Here is the full inscription:

 

 

And a close up:

 

 

Thank you so very much in advance...

[Eric H]

For comparison, Echigo no Kami Kanesada

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Manji 万治

 

Kanesada had a significant change in his mei, mei shown by Eric are Koki mei, the one on your blade according the dating is a shoki-mei.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Thank you for the quick responses!

 

What does "Koki Mei" and "Shoki Mei" mean? These are new terms to me and Dr. Stein's sword glossary (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossry.htm) does not define these terms.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Shoki mei 初期銘 = mei of early period

 

Koki mei 後期銘 = mei of later period

[SwordGuyJoe]

So the date is August 1666? I read Manji (Thank you) ku nen hachi gatsu hi. Close? Also, can you help point me in the right direction on which Kanesada this is? The date looks to be (to your point) an early second generation Kanesada (KAN 281), but could it be a late 1st generation (KAN 280)? Thank you so much for the help.

 

I took a few pictures of the blade and had a VERY difficult time capturing the hamon and hada - below are the pictures and here are the sword particulars:

Nagasa: 28.5"

Nagako: 6 15/16" (ubu)

Kissaki: 1 7/16"

Munemachi: 1/8"

Hamachi: 1/16"

Sori: 7/8"

Nakago-jiri: Kengyo

Yasurime: Sujikai

Mune: Iori-mune

Jihada: Masame-hada (I think)

Hamon: Gunome midare

 

 

[Nobody]

So the date is August 1666? I read Manji (Thank you) ku nen hachi gatsu hi. Close? ......

I am not so sure about the 3rd character. But the year may be Manji Gan-nen (万治元年 = 1658).

 

BTW, Manji 9-nen did not exist. The last day of Manji era is the 4th month 24th day of Manji 4th year, which is equivalent to May 22, 1661.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Thank you very much Koichi San

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Echigo no kami Kanesada was a student of Iga no kami Kanemichi. He is considered like the shodai, The nidai Kanesada became Sakakura Gonnoshin Terukane.

 

Can we have a picture of the whole nakago?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

After some check, it appears the the mei shown by Eric are not Koki mei from the shodai but mei by the nidai (Sakakura Terukane). However i don't say yours is shoshin

[Eric H]

This is a comparison with Kanesada shodai (Fujishiro kanteisho)

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Two examples: First is from Fujishiro shinto Hen, second from Toko Taikan.

 

 

 

It seems Kanesada was not consistent engraving his mei.

 

A daisho from him which confirms his lack of consistency

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/09119.html

[SwordGuyJoe]

I will post a picture of the full nakago this evening. What are shodai and nidai? 1st generation and 2nd generation? Thank you.

[Jacques D.]

What are shodai and nidai? 1st generation and 2nd generation? Thank you.

 

Right.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Even with the variation in mei styles posted above is it the consensus of the group that this is gimei?

[SwordGuyJoe]

Here's photos of the nakago.

 

[SwordGuyJoe]

It seems Kanesada was not consistent engraving his mei. A daisho from him which confirms his lack of consistency

 

I have only been collecting for about 3 years, so I still have a LOT to learn - and I am not presuming shoshin or gimei on this blade - but with differences this radical, how do you ever know whether the signature is genuine without sending to shinsa? And even then, I am sure they get them wrong at times too.

[reinhard]

Dear Jacques and Eric. Before going into the matter of shodai and nidai "Echigo no Kami KANESADA" and subtle details of mei, you should consider absurdities like this:

 

....nen hachi gatsu gatsu (!!??!!)

 

Now, what is this supposed to mean in connection with an almost illegible, deliberately deformed and deteriorated nengo? Was KANESADA stammering while chiselling the nengo? - Any bells ringing?

 

reinhard

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I've missed "gatsu gatsu" :?

 

Joe, if i consider the location of the mei, its whole style and some others parameters i can reasonably deduct it is gimei. at least until a real expert gives another mind.

 

When we want to verify a mei we always must determine exactly whom made the blade (generation) and checking the whole of his signatures, many having varied in engraving their mei all along their career.

[Eric H]

Dear Jacques and Eric. Before going into the matter of shodai and nidai "Echigo no Kami KANESADA" and subtle details of mei, you should consider absurdities like this:

 

Reinhard,

We, Jacques D, Moriyama san, and myself, gave an answer to his questions. Moriyama san stating that the date was not correct. Of course I noticed that. Further it became clear that the mei of his sword is more similar to shodai Kanesada. No one gave an opinion on the blade either shoshin or gimei, we were not asked then to do so, but pictures are conclusive. Now I add the oshigata's from Fujishiro shinto hen. It's up to SwordGuyJoe now to make up his mind.

Eric

[reinhard]

I didn't mean to interfere with your discussion of KANESADA's mei, but it is wasted on a nakago like this. One can save a lot of time and energy starting with the more obvious and simpler facts instead of going straight into subtle details. - It is the same with blades. It's better to start with looking at the sugata instead of searching for utsuri.

 

reinhard

[SwordGuyJoe]

Thank you all very much for the assistance and information. Luckily, I did not buy this as an Echigo no Kami Kanesada blade, but as a decent katana (I believe shinto).

[SwordGuyJoe]

As a follow-up to this line. I wonder if there was occurrence that dates were applied falsely to improve the value of the blade. For example, there was a smith who signed this mei that is quoted as producing in 1684 (KAN 282). If someone dated the blade as earlier, they could try to attribute the work to a superior smith. Did this happen that anyone knows of?

 

Is there a way to have the mei validated before giving to shinsa or is that the only way? I don't have enough documentation for me to do this myself and the variation of mei provided in this post is too great for me to say one way or the other. I would gladly accept PM's on the topic.

 

Either way, your answers will not offend me. Given the advise provided here on this board, I purchased the blade as a healthy katana, but placed no value on the name and was not charged the price of a healthy shodai or nidai Kanesada.