nihonto, iaido, Tameshigiri ?

[Roarke]

Hello to everybody...

 

I'm studying kenjutsu , but I would like to practice also with real samurai sword and not iato or bokken. So Im thinking about buying sharp katana for practicing iado and later Tameshigiri. Old swords fascinating me and means a lot for me.. At least more and more after im browsing your forum or reading books. I'm newbie in nihonto and just bought few books, but Im not in hurry and would be happy for some advices.. So I'm thinking about using not expensive katana from early shinto period, battle sword (ie more practical, then visual attractive), with not tired blade and no fatal flaws. And maybe with papers, because I would like to know sword's history..

 

Do you think, that I could buy something like this to 5000USD or less ? Do you think that its good idea to use old sword for Iado and Tameshigiri ? Or any other advice ?

 

Thank you very much

 

Marek R.

[Lorenzo]

You could buy that kind of sword for that money, but you really shouldn't use it for practical purpose, whatever it is iaido or battodo.

It is very easy to ruin a Japanese sword, and we now aren't really owner of something made hundred years ago just because we spend money on it; hopefully, a shinto period katana will survive you and me, and will be still there in many years from now. The reason is because it is not intended to be used any more, and just to be studied and preserved with care.

Please consider to use a practical sword instead.

[David Flynn]

If you want a traditionaly made Japanese sword for martial arts, then lower end WW11 gendaito would be my suggestion. You can pick these up at shows and even ebay for $2500-$3000 US in good condition. However, these swords will probably be in Army/Navy mounts. These mounts are fine for Tameshigiri but not Iado. Another option would be to buy a Showato/gunto and have Fred Lohman convert them to "civilian" mounts for a very reasonable fee. Showato are good for Tameshigiri(I would rather use one of these than a Shinken) and Iado.

[Henry Stewart]

Sir,

 

Please be advised in the strongest possible terms to join a club or masterclass and learn thoroughly the art which you propose to practice;

To those of us who collect and admire the Samurai Sword,it is an art form much to be admired. It is also a weapon with over a millenia of efficient history which is why it goes on lasting through time.

I have met people skilled in its use who have dropped concentration for a split second and learnt to rue the day they did.

You will be able to obtain a good item for the money you propose,and there is a plethora of advice available.

The Samurai spent most of a lifetime learning its use and care,and in your own interests you would be advised to follow their example,respecting the Sword and the damage it can cause in wrong or unskilled hands.

I wish you well in your endevours.

 

Henry

[sanjuro]

The desire to own and use a Nihonto is not uncommon in students of kenjutsu and more commonly students of Iaido. It is an impulse to be resisted and any self respecting teacher would not allow it until you have reached a level of proficiency where you would not represent a danger to yourself your fellow students and to your sensei.

Never in kenjutsu is a live blade used except in kata and at the very highest level of proficiency by very senior practitioners. A Nihonto was made to kill and it will do so accidentally as equally efficiently as it will when used seriously.

This is the best advice I can give as a qaulified practitioner of both disciplines and also as an ex teacher of both disciplines.

 

By all means buy and cherish a Nihonto. It will inspire you and fascinate you. But please never use it!

A sword for tamishigiri is easily obtained as already advised by others, but please do not try to use the weapon without supervision until such time as you have reached a decent level of expertise. A live blade is not a toy, nor is it something with which to indulge in unsupervised experimentation.

 

May your journey to enlightenment in martial arts be filled with wonder and joy, and may you come to the realisation that true swordsmanship lies in the achievement of never needing to draw a blade.

[Roarke]

Hello

 

Thank you very much for your opinion and advices... I didn't mean use sharp sword for practicing kenjutsu or in kata (its not possible in our school).. Please understand, that I'm not ninja freak ( I'm almost forty). I want to care about sword with all diligence and respect but keep it still active... I know, that these swords were made for kill and I never want to use them in this way or hurt anybody... My goal is just continue with study and in most realistic way as is possible.. When I use Iaito, I could do it in wrong way and this is not my way..

 

So, maybe use it for Tameshigiri is bad idea, but for also Iado ? I think, that is not possible damage blade with Iaido.. Its very hard for me to resist use it at least for Iado ...

 

Anyway my puzzle to solve is use old sword or new one but both them will be sharp....

 

Thank you again for discussion and any opinion..

 

Marek R.

[Rich S]

Marek -

 

I used an Ishido Teruhide (gendaito) in Showa era civilian mounts for many years practicing iaido. Lovely, well balanced sword. Never caused any damage to it. Did slice my thumb once before I learned NOT to guide the sword with your thumb :-) I do agree that you will be forced to learn proper drawing technique (iaido) using a live blade that you will never learn with an dull blade. Nothing like swinging a 3 foot razor blade to keep you alert and paying attention to what you are doing. Just do it well away from anyone else. Loosing one of your fingers is your business; causing serious harm to someone close by is careless and foolish. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

Rich S

[Baka Gaijin]

Good evening Marek,

 

If I had $5000 to spend, I would stick with the Bokuto and go to Japan and train.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[FBJ]

Do you think, that I could buy something like this to 5000USD or less ? Do you think that its good idea to use old sword for Iado and Tameshigiri ? Or any other advice ?

 

Old sword or new. Regardless, have you logged at least 8-10 years experience in a reputable iaido organization? For obvious reasons the vast majority won't let you walk through the door with a sharp sword unless you've put the time in. As for tameshigiri, any well-built cutter from some of the more popular retailers should suit you fine.

[Nautilus]

As a new-boy to the forums (can't believe it took me so long to find them), perhaps I should not be offering my observations so roundly...

 

However, for the OP: Whilst your desire to work with a live blade is - in principle - practical, my experiences lead me to stand behind the urging of formal study and great care with regard to the use of the right tool for the right job - even if that tool is made of wood, or Durally.

 

My own Master vehemently refuses to associate his teaching with the sort of Durally Iaito (from outlets such as Tozando) which now dominate the market - abroad, as well as here in Japan.

 

I myself graduated to a suitable, refitted Gendaito from the Bokuto and, under proper tutelage I have not regretted it. Nowadays, I can feel the difference between a live blade and an Iaito, even on simple Iai work, and I now understand my Master's concerns: "if the blade is not real, then all that follows is not real" (he's a bit of a character, and a little set in his ways, but I respect him and love his daughter, so it is doubly hard to find fault in him - I think that it was because he was raised to the sword-proper as a lad practising Iaido and cutting on his Master's blades and had some sort of allergic reaction to all the Zinc which began flowing into Iaito ).

 

However, this is a special case and a Master who has much practical experience in instructing students on sharp lives - both new, and venerable blades.

 

I suppose I am saying that while there is a place for an appropriate live blade in more places and at more levels of use than might be imagined, the key here has to be good, formal training under a Master who knows the practicalities of the matter. Moreover, as others have said (above and below - Edit) using antiques which have not passed muster under the gaze of a very qualified individual is a danger to your investment, eyes and marriage prospects.

 

- Darren.

 

Edit: for clarity, humour and 20% more humility.

[sanjuro]

Alas, he will heed only that which most closely agrees with his own desires.

[huntershooter]

Darren; a nameless Master said this: "no learn sword from stick, learn stick from stick".

Yes, a bit opinionated. I'm in no position to agree or disagree.

[Toryu2020]

Nihonto, IAIDO, Tameshigiri,

Darren -

Practice with a live blade, Shinken, Shinsakuto or antique should only be approached under the tutelage of a qualified teacher. As you can see it is not recommended for rank beginners off on their own. Your passion, your desire are are valuable things it would be a shame to lose either because of a stupid accident. Is your teacher aware of your goal? Is he/she driving the search? A proper "fitting" sword for the particular art you seek to study is not that easy to identify I'll wager. There are many factors that go into the choice, any one of which if not studied carefully will have you regretting your investment. You need to be very clear on the style of art you intend to practice and that will dictate the sword you need, and you need your teacher to guide your choices.

 

Using antiques is never a good idea since as has been pointed out we are only caretakers of these items and it is incumbent upon us to see that they are passed down for many more generations to come,

-tom

AUSKF - Iaido 3 Dan

MSJER - Iaido 6 Dan Renshi

[David Flynn]

In Sydney, there are a few schools of Kenjustsu and Battojutsu which practice with live blades. The only schools in Sydney that practice with Iaito, are Iaido.

I saw a Tameshigiri competition which was held in Australia. A first dan from Battojutsu beat a 4th dan from Iaido. Infact the Iaido practioners, where made look, amateurish altogether. Maybe (guessing) the Iaido practioners, 1: Aren't comfortable with a live blade. 2: Don't practice cutting very often?

Not trying to be contentious, just observations.

[Nautilus]

Nihonto, IAIDO, Tameshigiri,

Darren -

Practice with a live blade, Shinken, Shinsakuto or antique should only be approached under the tutelage of a qualified teacher.

 

Indeed, you hit the nail one the head, and it took me a good few years before the Master was satisfied enough to have me 'fitted' - a tortuous process indeed, especially as he insisted on me selecting a "blade of character" (as he put it) from his collection: not that I could have afforded to commission one at that time, so in many ways his largesse defined me as a student - I suppose that is why my collector's passion follows my swordsman's passion for such a limited period in history).

 

I was wary, to be honest. However, I was won over by his eminently practical attitude to the art and the blades which live at the heart of it. However, do not mistake him - or his progeny - as flippant. He is an old soldier, from a line of soldiers who knew, and know the value of a good, keen blade. I suppose his philosphy can be summed up as follows - 'The sword is sacred, not a sacred cow and while we owe something to the future it cannot be at the sacrifice of the present'. Still, that is enough for us, and not a recommendation I suppose (we too have blades which are so much works of art that they never go near the dojo in anger).

 

You stress the important points far more clearly than I did to the OP. Proper tutelage is the key, and only one's master can guide you, when ready, as to the right sort of blade.

 

As for who is guiding whom in my case though, that is a question which has been occupying us since 1995. Still, trust and loyalty have been earned and shared in those years and for all that the Boss is a cranky bugger sometimes, I prize him and what he has taught me and mine.

 

Darren.

 

Edit: for cronky spelling.

[John A Stuart]

Just curious, but, being an old soldier is your teacher of the Nakamura or Toyama ryu? They do have an emphasis on tameshigiri. John

[Toryu2020]

Darren et al -

I apologize my comments should have been directed at Marek (the OP) and not you, Darren.

 

On another note; @David, I do hope that folks in Sydney remember to spell Iaido, I-A-I-D-O. I was not at the event described and can hardly be a spokesman for Iaido-ka, but would have to say, yes, most Iai groups do not practice Tameshigiri regularly. I think it is important to do so and a person of any rank should carefully consider where they are "testing" and practice accordingly or be prepared for the audience and the judges to have different standards. For example MJER might impress folks in Kyoto but would hardly win awards in Las Vegas (if you know what I mean).

Live blades however are not the be all and end all imho...

-t

[Roarke]

Hello..

 

Im hope, that you have good weekend...

 

If I had $5000 to spend, I would stick with the Bokuto and go to Japan and train.

 

I would be happy to go, but I have one year old girl now and another baby is on the way My next visit will be at April 2014...

 

The Samurai spent most of a lifetime learning its use and care,and in your own interests you would be advised to follow their example,respecting the Sword and the damage it can cause in wrong or unskilled hands.

 

I understand your concerns and I share them.. If I'll buy any live blade, I'll respect it and do my best to preserve it to next generations..

 

Alas, he will heed only that which most closely agrees with his own desires.

 

Sanjuro, thanks for writing it... I'll try to stay away from it..

 

Practice with a live blade, Shinken, Shinsakuto or antique should only be approached under the tutelage of a qualified teacher.

 

This is good point, I almost forget about it.. I need somebody to teach me how to use live blade Some members of our Dojo use live blade, but Sensei not.. I'll speak with him and ask for his opinion

 

Have a nice evening..

 

Marek

 

P.S. excuse me for Iaido, feel really stupid.. and please excuse my english is far from perfect....

[FBJ]

Nowadays, I can feel the difference between a live blade and an Iaito, even on simple Iai work..

 

In what manner is this difference felt to you? Just curious.

 

Mike

[Nautilus]

Nowadays, I can feel the difference between a live blade and an Iaito, even on simple Iai work..

 

In what manner is this difference felt to you? Just curious.

 

Mike

 

For example, the Iaito I have, which was quietly made to the measurements of my favourite sword for practice at home is rather lighter than the parent sword itself. Not negatively so, to be sure, but just enough for me to notice (assuming I am not just so caught up in the whole mystique of tamahagane that I have gone wappy ).