Talking about Hama-Mono

[Ford Hallam]

the Art Deco influence demonstrated in the work of Itō Masayoshi (1744-1796) are both clear examples of foreign influences not intended for export.

 

So Itō Masayoshi was either a remarkable visionary...or he had a time machine :D

 

The Art Deco movement was roughly from the 1920's to the early 1940's and emerged out of Cubism, Modernism and Art Nouveau (itself hugely inspired by Japanese Art) and various other artistic theories and philosophies.

[Eric H]

Grey, there must be large quantities of Tosogu in Europe as well in USA.

 

In Italy:

Edoardo Chiossone, in Japan from 1875 to 1898, built up a collection of Japanese art objects, ca. 20'000 pieces (Museum E. Chiossone in Genova)

Enrico di Borbone, il Conte di Bardi, during his visits in Japan and Asia 1887-1889, a collection of ca. 36'000 pieces. (Museum in Venice)

Frederick Stibbert, large collection of Japanese Arms and Armour. (Museum Stibbert in Florence)

 

Then the collectors of the "first days"

Samuel Bing Collection, Paris

Michael Tomkinson Collection England

Goncourt Collection, Paris

Georg Oeder, Germany (lists 1798 Tosogu pieces)

The Baur Collection (in Geneva)

 

and what is stored in European and American museums?

 

I dislike the term hama-mono in relation to Tsuba, it's suitable for works by the Komai, for they worked exclusively for foreign markets. With the fall of the Shogunate and the abolition of the Samurai-class, the banning of wearing swords in 1876, Tosho and Tsubako were forced to change their living conditions. For instance Kiyondo, 1827-1902, retired in 1871 and started a new career in the hotel business.

 

but, what is different between Eric's examples and

A good question...I have added 8 pics. Now as we are told by Reinhard how to evaluate and examine in particular Tsuba's, i.e. Tosogu, everyone, inclusive Reinhard, is free in to give an opinion. I leave it open, if these are pre Meiji or not.

 

Eric

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

In Italy:

Edoardo Chiossone, in Japan from 1875 to 1898, built up a collection of Japanese art objects, ca. 20'000 pieces (Museum E. Chiossone in Genova)

 

Worth a visit for its collection of Tsuba

[Jean]

Ford,

 

Be a good boy and I'll send you one day some pictures of my Daum collection .... :D :D

[george trotter]

Some have said this thread became mired...I myself said it was becoming "waffle...and it was, but ultimately it has been a valuable discussion.

In the other Hama-mono thread on Tim's Hisanori galloping horse Dai tsuba, Reinhard said of it "Western expectations...combined with Japanese skills and craftsmanship automatically lead to Hama-mono: things made for export during the Meiji-period". In the beginning of this thread, he said "attached are some [tsuba] examples obviously made for export" followed by What do we think?This caused a lot of discussion of varying degrees of insight/opinion. Once Reinhard explained his position regarding the above statements, it became clear why he held that view. It did not lead to a general agreement with his view. It has become clear that there is much dissent; that "Western expectations" do not necessarily "automatically lead to Hama-mono" or that Hama-mono are "obviously made for export" , nor is western influence necessarily "pompous, pretentious, Disneyland, MacDonalds and abandoned old hookers", it is merely western influence. There is obviously more study here for someone; all those specifically commissioned Meiji era collections that were mentioned in Europe and UK, USA etc. It has emerged as a topic that has apparently barely been investigated. I think we are a bit more focussed and informed on the subject thanks to this discussion.

George.

[reinhard]

Here's some more mind-food in order to elaborate Japanese and Western principles of aesthetics as far as tsuba are concerned: I'll start with two tsuba displaying the "fish theme". One of them is a very famous tsuba displaying a "traditional approach". The other one is the tsuba made during Meiji-period you have already seen. Apart from details of craftsmanship, the use of space available on the plate for design is quite different.

In order to illustrate this point of view, I'll give you another example, comparing the "hawk on a rock"-theme on a tsuba made by Ishiguro MASAYOSHI to an "Ishiguro-style" tsuba dating from Meiji-period.

 

I'm aware of the fact that most samurai could not afford buying from top-level fitting-makers, but that's not what it is about.

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

BTW, Mr.Trotter, it was "cheap hooker" I said, not "old one". Although I'm not perfectly familiar with the English language, I'm trying to choose my words carefully, even if they sound provoking to your ears. Please do not quote me falsely according to your own interpretation. Thank you.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Hi Reinhard,

 

The sekigane of the "Hawk on the rock" (bottom left) are of the same colour as tsuba's ...

 

How come? I have seen this on other tsuba, some cast

[sensei215]

I thank Reinhard for his concern. I have enjoyed all the information and sometimes opinion that posting the Hisanori has generated. It has been an interesting learning experience. I appreciate the point that Reinhart has illustrated so well with the tsuba he chose to show. I agree the Hama-Mono examples he posted are a bit over the hill as was the silver dragon tachi. But do all Japanese share the exact same taste? Hmmmm!!! I wonder. I have seen quite a few swords over the almost 40 years I have collected. I readily admit that I have basically always been a blade enthusiast. I always consider it like an ice cream sundae the whip cream and cherry were great but didn't help if the ice cream was bad. I have been told that more then a few of wakazashi's and some tanto were mounted for people other then samurai. Is this what we are seeing ? I will admit I have several ornate pieces but I don't think to many of these were done for Western taste. I have a Satsuma daisho that may be of interest in this conversation. I will try to post pictures in the next couple of days. I think I will need to take a course in photography to learn how to get a good photo.

 

Tim S

[sanjuro]

Much of what we are discussing here is concerned with our perception of what is Japanese and what is western in terms of art. What I'm reaching for here is a distinction between the treatment of subject, placement, use of 'white space' etc. That we can judge by. On the one hand we have the distinctly Japanese Aesthetic. On the other, the corruption if I can use the term, of that aesthetic by the Japanese artisan in order to satisfy what he may interpret as a western preference. Such examples would legitimately be open to classification as 'made for export'. Given that some examples are an exploration of a Japanese aesthetic by an artisan, and some are blatant commercial products, how do we draw a line between them?

Badly designed and/or executed tsuba were made long before the Japanese became aware of western preferences. Not every tsuba turned out by every tsubako was in 'good Japanese taste', and indeed who is to say what is good bad or indifferent since we all differ in what we like or dont like? Even the ugliest dog will find a loving owner. I'm quite sure the Japanese are not a nation with universally identical good taste.

The examples given in this thread are there to illustrate a point and they do it well. There are however many examples that are not so clearly identifiable as Hama-mono as the examples given here.

The previous thread with the Hisanori daisho pair featuring the horse and his passage is an example of this.

One wonders why, given these examples of tsuba were made for western preferences, do we westerners find them so damned ugly?

[Eric H]

what is different between Eric's examples and Reinhard's? John

 

My invitation for comments was ignored maybe due to no interest or simply overlooking their qualities. I would have at least expected a brief statement by the initiator of this topic on the Tsuba's I have posted after all his explanations about Japanese aesthetics...no comment is a comment by itself. All posted Tsuba's are in Japan.

 

A - Tsuba Muromachi time

B - Natsuo, printed in the Nihonto-Koza vol. 8, the two Chinese characters "Natsuo"

C - Kodogu late Edo from a Daisho's Katana worn by Tokugawa Yoshikatsu, Daimyo of Owari

 

B - Goto Ichijo

C - Hamano Noriyuki

D - Nomura Kanenori, Juyo

E - Akiyoshi, Aizu Shoami school (see Clive Sinclaires comment on Aizu Shoami), sold for $ 66,000

F - Katsura Eiju, Juyo

 

Eric

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I wonder what you can think about these ones:

 

 

 

[Jean]

First one, undoubtedly an early Jingo tsuba, 1st or 2nd Generation, very sought after, anyway the price of some small Juyo.

There was an excellent article about Jingo tsuba by Robert Burawoy in the Bulletin de l'Association Franco-Japonaise 20 years ago.

 

But it is not my cup of tea, I'll prefer Eric's ones (always loved Kinko, Mito ..)

[Mark Green]

Eric,

 

Where are your pics????? I couldn't see them.

[Jean]

Page 2 Mark, second post from the top page

[reinhard]

Another "Western" feature of many Meiji-period tsuba is a theatrical exaggeration. This is particularly obvious when design was meant to depict motion. In most cases they are displaying a "dead serious" attitude when it comes to "drama and adventure". Earlier approaches to the same topics dealt with the subject with a sense of dignity and understatement. At least they showed some originality and/or a sense of humour. Meiji-period tsuba often have this "Hollywood-esk" quality that makes them look ridiculous. Two examples to illustrate my point of view: Nio-O, traditionally depicted with super-human muscles in order to visualize his divine nature, is reduced to an eye-rolling clown; staring at the viewer frontally, ready to jump out of the frame and looking like a steroid-crazed runner of the 4x100m at Olympic games. - The other tsuba is telling the story of Nitta no Shiro killing a giant boar. It looks like a screen-shot from a silly movie. There is a tsuba by Otsuki MITSUOKI, dating from late Edo-period, depicting the same topic in a much more dignified way, but I could not find it quickly.

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Reinhard,

These sayings of yours are surely just opinion, not fact? Where is your proof that these depictions are "Western"? Also, where is the evidence that "if" these depictions are "Western", the westerners demanded that the depictions be grotesque distortions of the Japanese aesthetic?

Wouldn't logic dictate that if westerners fell in love with Japanese art they would want to collect Japanese art, not insist that it be altered to become grotesque non-Japanese art?

Isn't it equally possible that a logical explanation is that the distortion and grotesque over-emphasis that appears on some Meiji era art is due to the distorted and grotesque interpretation of "Western" taste by Meiji era tsubako...who produced these works hoping to attract western buyers. That is, the distortion and grotesque appearance of the art may have come from the Japanese themselves?...those with an unclear understanding of western taste who wanted to please the westerners.

It would be helpful that instead of comparing illustrations of the finest of "Japanese aesthetic" tsubas you can find with the worst examples of "Western" tsubas you can find, you compare also some worst examples of "Japanese aesthetic' tsubas with some of the best examples of "Western aesthetic" tsubas? Just a suggestion.

Otherwise it is hard to judge your argument because of the inbuilt bias of your presentation...what do you think?

Hope this helps the discussion, George.

[sanjuro]

Reinhard.

 

We have the 'black' and the 'white' of this discussion in terms of examples carefully chosen to illustrate the extremes of your argument. You obviously have an opinion to which you are entitled and have presented the examples that most graphically illustrate that viewpoint. The discussion however remains biased and unbalanced in as much as examples of Hama mono that do not fit these extremes were concerned. There were surely excellent tsuba that were made purely for export that did not comply to some warped interpretation of so-called 'western' preferences. In order to present a balanced discussion these are the examples not represented here which we need to see and to weigh against those already presented. Do you have access to such examples? I would really like to see them.

 

Good discussion though, IMHO.

[Toryu2020]

Gentlemen -

I would refer you to the 1997 catalog of the Nat Museum exhibit and other books that depict the swords of the Meiji emperor. The tsuba, kodogu and saya makiie are all over the top like the examples above. This was the taste of the times, influenced by the flood of western art and ideas but not imho dictated by it...

-t

[Mark Green]

I agree with Tom. " the taste of the times, influenced by the flood of western art and ideas but not imho dictated by it"

 

Very much like the taste of the times that went from iron disks, sometimes with simple sukashi, to very detailed, and carved alloy tsuba in the later times of peace. It was a natural process of art.

 

And I see very little western influence in Reinhard's tsuba. Chinese maybe. imo.

 

And I liked all of Eric's pics. There is no reason to think any of those had any western influence. Any of those could be mounted as well.

All wonderful art of the times.

Mark G

[watsonmil]

I can see both sides of this argument/discussion. The comming of Commodore Perry's Black Ships had an immense influence on the Ploitical and Social climate of the formerly insulated Japanese Culture. It was the beginning of the end of the Feudal System in Japan and consequently the demise and eventual disbandment of the Samurai Class. It should not go un-noticed of course that subtle changes from the times of the unification of Japan under the Tokogawa were already in place. The Samurai sword and it's fittings gradually moved from the very simple yet effective weapons of war to a quiet reserved sword and fittings as peace and stability came to Japan. As the era of peace continued we see a slow but steady trend towards more flamboyant sword style, and more expressive fittings until by the end of the Shin Shinto period the swords and fittings are somewhat overly influenced by louder and louder ( for the Japanese at least ) expressions of ART over utilitarianism. It continued this established trend into the Meiji era. It seems to me at least this was a natural internal transition rather than one immensly influenced by European likes and dislikes. There is no doubt that the Europeans bringing there culture to bear upon the Japanese would have some influence. To think otherwise would be to say that foreign immigration to Canada or the Uk has not had cultural influence on those nations. I have not yet seen Heinrich present a piece that demonstrates that the Japanese artisan deliberately changed the aestetics of his work to western influence ( although some may exhist ), I do not see that the Japanese were doing anything that the Japanese themselves were not already demanding in their fittings due to internal stagnation in the militarism of the country. The samurai turned more and more towards the visual stimulation that comes from Art rather than the physical stimulation that comes from Warfare. The Europeans certainly influenced all aspects of Japanese culture with that I agree, ... but I think ART was one of the least influenced. Art generally is a CULTURAL manifestation and not subject to the same forces of influence as are the scientific, medical, inventions and politics of other counties intrusions. Just my observations, ... Ron Watson

[watsonmil]

Dear Reinhard, .... in my short article I managed to refer to you as Heinrich. I am sorry for this. I was interrupted in my typing by a customer by the name of Heinrich, ... and example learned DO NOT TYPE when talking on the phone, My sincere apology for my error.

Regards, ... Ron Watson

[drbvac]

Great discussion gentlemen, theories abound - we may never know what went on in the minds of artists as they picked up their chisels. Neat to speculate, it would be very interesting to try and come across an account by one of the smiths as to what actually formulated the direction of their art at the time- there may be somewhere

[reinhard]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for participating. Those of you criticizing me for offering an opinion only are right of course, but like I said: this thread was never meant to be a lecture (for which I'm not competent anyway). I do respect many of your points of view differing from my own, but I won't provide you with pics and examples illustrating your opinions. You must do that yourselves, if you please.

 

Finally I would like to present 4 tsuba depicting Koi, made during second half of 19th c., reflecting some of my theories.

 

top left: made by Shiho HOEN around 1870. The Koi is of big size. The artist didn't feel comfortable with the empty space left on the plate and added some wavy fillings, but they are badly designed, unnecessary, carelessly executed. This tsuba is a half-hearted compromise between Japanese aesthetics and Western expectations.

 

bottom left: signed: TOSHIMASA, later 19th c., 10.4cm vertical diameter. This tsuba is the perfect example for an eye-catcher, trying to get the attention of a lesser educated Japanophile: big size, bright and shiny colors, some elaborated details; but all in all it is the kind of pompous "Kitsch" traditional Japanese aesthetics do not display.

 

top right: described as "NATSUO-school". Meiji-period. The Koi are nicely executed (sorry for the bad pic) and design is pretty well-balanced, although the Koi appear somewhat fat and fleshy, deliberatly trying to fill the frame. I imagine Westerners with a more refined taste enjoying this tsuba. Made for export, but not giving tradition away.

 

bottom right: This is a tsuba by Kano NATSUO (again sorry for the pic). Design is perfectly in accordance with refined principles of Japanese aesthetics. Well-balanced it is, without any unneccessary ballast. Instead of loading the empty space(s) with all kind of stuff, NATSUO trusted in the supreme quality of ground material and finish.

Kano NATSUO was designated an artisan of the imperial household. Along with Goto ICHIJO he set the standards for refined Japanese taste during later 19th c. - This particular tsuba is the very opposite of what I'd call a "Hama-mono" although it was made during later 19th century.

 

reinhard

[drbvac]

Well you certainly illustrate your point. And you know, the Natsuo is restful, soft, very quiet clear water - relaxing - peaceful - nice!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Reinhard, I see exactly what you are trying to convey in your examples. Understated miyabi or iki, I get it. The same principal applies in the other disciplines as well, the tokonoma in the corner of the room, focusing the eye on the simplistic beauty evoking a quiet sense of nature and beauty lost, a melancholia, mono no aware, as the Zen garden and the quaint disrepair of jizo or old temples/ shrines. I also understand that there was exuberant innovation in the arts of the time, as occurs during most periods of change and revolution, note the Renaissance, a revolution of ideas, suki. There were schools that were very exuberant in their design that one wouldn't consider as the rustic simplicity of wabi sabi or in the spirit of tea. Nevermind, it is the different approaches that provide the spice in the pudding. What I fail to see is how because of these new innovative experiments it is relegated to western taste if it doesn't fit a formulaic derivative. I know that there was some of 'giving them what they want' as to themes and craftmanship, but, help me understand what you consider western aesthetics and how these particular tsuba demonstrate this. It can't just be a simple case of too much can it? or not enough space? Can this be a case of personal perception attempting to adhere to written philosophy on zen in art? John

[Jean]

Nothing is simple. Let's be clear. Influence of Western world has been present in Japan as soon as 16th Century. Everything being intricated, it is quite difficult to separate so intertwinned matter.

 

What I mean is : Are objets d'art manufactured in Japan under European influence destinated only for Exports? This is the question. What was Tourism at the end of 19th Century? Considering the main collections in Europe (Baur, Gonze, Goncourt ... Van gogh, Caillebotte...) were they made from Hama-mono or not.

 

Are Hama-Mono mass products of little interest or not? Were they designed specially for export or was it answering the needs of a domestic market?

[george trotter]

With respect... Probably the reason most of us haven't bothered to post pics to support "our" position is that we were questioning your position, which you stated was basically that departures from the Japanese aesthetic was a result of western influence, western aesthetic was all bad, and that tsuba with western influence are automatically hama-mono...we are still waiting for you to provide the discussion with proof of what you said. In regard to your position...I don't see that these latest tsuba are obviously western influence and thus unquestionably hama-mono.

There is a way of testing your above opinion on foreigh influence: I remember lots of photographs from 1860-1890 where Japanese men wearing traditional clothes, kimono, geta etc, are wearing western straw hats and felt hats. If we follow your logic about westerners demanding "bad" un-Japanese art...these Japanese men should have been demanding "bad" un-western hats..say straw hats made of hard lacquer or soft felt hats shaped like jingasa, or hats that the Japanese men of that time would "imagine" western hats to be....but there is "proof that they did not do this...it is that there are no photographs showing them....only "aesthetically pure western hats". Maybe like westerners who loved Japanese things, these Japenese who loved western things just bought them...as they are...some good quality, some bad quality.

Just an idea...surely you can find some pics to support you thesis?

George. (I'd look good in a soft floppy jimgasa!) :-)

[David Flynn]

They're called Slouch hats George.

[Toryu2020]

Reinhard et al -

I should hope that you understand that I for one am not criticizing you but just can't agree with your point. FWIW here is what Fukunaga Suiken Sensei has to say on the subject;

 

"Hama-mono: an all encompassing term for Tôken/tôsogu that were created for foreigners living in Yokohama during the Meiji period. Also known as Pokadan().

Mostly sôken-gu, Gin-goshirae and Makie-zaya, flamboyant saya that foreigners might like by smiths that lost their customers after the haitô-rei. "

 

I am working on scans BTW,

-t