Naginata-naoshi

[Bosco]

41 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

 

 Now he gonna ask you for reference 😆. You better watch out, the reference inspector coming for ya.

[Bosco]

54 minutes ago, Jacques said:

How can you say he can reconfigure the shinogi if you don't know how? It's like saying there are green giraffes but I've never seen one.... 

How many sword have you seen/held, own ?. 

[Lewis B]

Waiting for Jacques to say thats not green, its lime.

[Mikaveli]

23 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Waiting for Jacques to say thats not green, its lime.

To make it topical, by way of aligning it to Japanese translation precision...

 

It's blue! 青キリン🦒

[sabiji]

I go one step further: 本来無一物 Honrai mu ichi motsu!

Of course green giraffes exist! Even though they might not have existed before, they do right now.

 

But it doesn't matter at all, because nothing exists in the origin. No Nihonto message board, no Naginata Naoshi, no green giraffes. It's all just a work of human beingness. And it means nothing. We can blow out all the emotions around the things mentioned like an elephant, or simply let them burst. That's why no sack of rice falls over in China.

 

When you realize that, you basically remain completely calm - regardless of whether the naginata naoshi has a kaeri or not.

 

Oooommmmmmmmmmmmmhh.....

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I know that people like to take jabs at Jacques as his blunt style can be bit unforgiving, however he knows a lot in general. I admit that I was wrong and like Jacques said NBTHK do indeed use naginata-naoshi even for ubu swords just made in style of real naginata-naoshi. I had previously thought it would be just reserved for actual former polearms.

 

Here is what I would call just katana but NBTHK calls it naginata-naoshi in Jūyō 31. I was trying to find latest reworked polearm as was asked by Michael on the last page. I was doing quick browse of my Jūyō list and thought I hit a quite modern reworked polearm with this Nobuhide that was made in 1863. I was very puzzled as to me this is just an ubu katana, not a former polearm, and in the nakago description NBTHK even just states this for it: 茎 - 生ふ, 先栗尻, 鑢目浅い勝手下り, 目釘孔一, 指表目釘孔から一字上げて, 棟寄りにやや大振りの三字銘があり, 裏は目釘孔から三字上げて, 棟寄りに同じく年紀がある.

 

 

This terminology thing is bit fundamental problem as there are not that clear guidelines anywhere. Some organizations use some terms while others use other ones. That is one of the reason I personally just use naginata as the general term for all polearm blade types. However various organizations, museums, shrines, temples etc. can use these terms.

 

Naginata - 薙刀

Naginata-naoshi - 薙刀直し

Nagamaki - 長巻

Nagamaki-naoshi - 長巻直し

Nagatō - 長刀

Ōdachi - 大太刀

 

Some organizations use some terms almost exclusively for koshirae and some for blades, while other organizations can do both ways. The actual lines for these are at least to me somewhat blurred. Mounting type will of course matter in combination but there are items that do not have original mountings left anymore. So to me it is better not to stress too much. Even though I mentioned the term nagatō I would not think using it is good thing. It is extremely rarely used, I have mostly seen few shrines use that term. As far as NBTHK i regarded I have pretty much only seen them use it in relation to koshirae, and then it seems to me almost interchangeable with nagamaki koshirae. So far I have only seen 1 Tokubetsu Hozon feature this classification on top of my head.

 

Jacques also posted another extremely interesting Yoshikage blade, I will need to write another post about it. I checked and I currently have that particular blade featured in 13 different refences (that is good and bad thing with high level items that they appear in so many places while I would want to uncover new unknown items).

[Bugyotsuji]

薙刀直し刀　it says on that page!

[Mikaveli]

Just now, Bugyotsuji said:

薙刀直し刀　it says on that page!

Yeah, but the point was it's not - it's ubu, so tsukuri, right?

[Natichu]

38 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I know that people like to take jabs at Jacques as his blunt style can be bit unforgiving, however he knows a lot in general. I admit that I was wrong and like Jacques said NBTHK do indeed use naginata-naoshi even for ubu swords just made in style of real naginata-naoshi. I had previously thought it would be just reserved for actual former polearms.

 

Here is what I would call just katana but NBTHK calls it naginata-naoshi in Jūyō 31. I was trying to find latest reworked polearm as was asked by Michael on the last page. I was doing quick browse of my Jūyō list and thought I hit a quite modern reworked polearm with this Nobuhide that was made in 1863. I was very puzzled as to me this is just an ubu katana, not a former polearm, and in the nakago description NBTHK even just states this for it: 茎 - 生ふ, 先栗尻, 鑢目浅い勝手下り, 目釘孔一, 指表目釘孔から一字上げて, 棟寄りにやや大振りの三字銘があり, 裏は目釘孔から三字上げて, 棟寄りに同じく年紀がある.

 

 

This terminology thing is bit fundamental problem as there are not that clear guidelines anywhere. Some organizations use some terms while others use other ones. That is one of the reason I personally just use naginata as the general term for all polearm blade types. However various organizations, museums, shrines, temples etc. can use these terms.

 

Naginata - 薙刀

Naginata-naoshi - 薙刀直し

Nagamaki - 長巻

Nagamaki-naoshi - 長巻直し

Nagatō - 長刀

Ōdachi - 大太刀

 

Some organizations use some terms almost exclusively for koshirae and some for blades, while other organizations can do both ways. The actual lines for these are at least to me somewhat blurred. Mounting type will of course matter in combination but there are items that do not have original mountings left anymore. So to me it is better not to stress too much. Even though I mentioned the term nagatō I would not think using it is good thing. It is extremely rarely used, I have mostly seen few shrines use that term. As far as NBTHK i regarded I have pretty much only seen them use it in relation to koshirae, and then it seems to me almost interchangeable with nagamaki koshirae. So far I have only seen 1 Tokubetsu Hozon feature this classification on top of my head.

 

Jacques also posted another extremely interesting Yoshikage blade, I will need to write another post about it. I checked and I currently have that particular blade featured in 13 different refences (that is good and bad thing with high level items that they appear in so many places while I would want to uncover new unknown items).

Though one wrinkle there - in the item I highlighted earlier, the nakago is described as ubu, but the setsumei makes clear it has been shortened. So while the blade hasn't been shortened or reshaped (and so likely is what it isn't a naoshi) with the nakago moved up, the tail of the tang was cut down. So while ubu, the tang is modified. 

 

Is it possible that is the case here? 

[Jussi Ekholm]

The Yoshikage Jūyō Bunkazai can be found in the cultural database where every Kokuhō and Jūyō Bunkazai item is listed, here is the entry for it: https://kunishitei.bunka.go.jp/heritage/detail/201/6524

 

I was about to write that it is privately owned in Fukuoka prefecture, however looks like the location has changed since I last looked through every sword in database (maybe 2021-22?). The sword now resides in private collection in Aichi prefecture. For these very famous swords their location can be tracked as in my oldest books it has been owned in Kanagawa prefecture, seems like from there it went to Fukuoka prefecture and now it is in Aichi prefecture. Unfortunately I couldn't find it fast in Aichi Prefecture database for their National level Bunkazai items. Digging through the prefecture and city bunkazai has been bit exhausting as I needed a long pause trying to get through all of the cities.

 

Personally I most often go by Bunkachō designations, I just feel in general as if they would have the most prestige, usually followed by NBTHK. However Bunkachō still classifies this as tachi for some reason, even though it is a shortened former polearm.

 

First two pages are from Shōwa Daimeitō Zufu (昭和大名刀図譜), the Japanese page for the item and the partial English translation from the original bonus translation book.

 

 

This one is by NBTHK, the sword was feature item of Tōken Bijutsu 213. They see it as nagamaki-naoshi. Of course I think modern NBTHK does not use nagamaki-naoshi for blades as a term anymore.

 

 

What is very interesting in these NBTHK feature items that you get all the measurements, as you can see the motokasane and sakikasane measurements too, 0,45 to 0,35 cm.

[Jussi Ekholm]

As I have spent already so much time on this I decided I would look into all naginata-naoshi form descriptions in Jūyō 31 and they are bit all over place.

 

Rai Kunitoshi - Kanmuri-otoshi-zukuri

Rai Kunimitsu - Naginata-zukuri

Shikkake - Naginata-zukuri

Unji - Naginata-zukuri

Unji - Naginata-zukuri

Unji - Naginata-zukuri

Motoshige - Shōbu-zukuri

Hōjōji - Shinogi-zukuri

Hōjōji - Naginata-naoshi in shōbu-zukuri

Nobuhide - Naginata-naoshi-zukuri (the one 1864 dated few posts up)

 

I admit I have never really looked that particular part of Jūyō books as I can visually see the image of the blade and check for myself. However I am extremely disappointed at the naginata-zukuri description. I would have thought they would have written the actual blade form like in some cases. Now to make the continuity a lot worse. I do own very recent Jūyō 68 and 67 books.

 

In 68

den Chōgi - Naginata-naoshi-zukuri

Yoshikage - Naginata-naoshi-zukuri

Sanemitsu - Naginata-naoshi-zukuri

 

In 67

Hoshō  - Naginata-naoshi-zukuri

 

So as you can see NBTHK has changed their terminology over the years, and that does make things bit difficult to evaluate.

[Bugyotsuji]

1 hour ago, Mikaveli said:

Yeah, but the point was it's not - it's ubu, so tsukuri, right?

No, I mean that this particular description (the wording) is not on any of Jussi’s lists.

Naginata-naoshi-gatana 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

It was just my mishap that I forgot to mention that most commonly the length is added afterwards by NBTHK, depending on if it is currently wakizashi sized or katana sized

薙刀直し刀

薙刀直し脇指

 

薙刀直し太刀

Now there is also very rare naginata-naoshi-tachi classification. I can actually show an example of this. Unfortunately I don't own any copyrights to the pictures but I don't think I will be eliminated by ninjas even if I post them. This particular blade was one that I was saving up for for over a year but it got sold. Then years later it reappeared on another Japanese dealers site but didn't have a chance to buy it then either. One character of smith is illegible and at first it was judged as tachi by Hidemitsu (秀光) but later revised as naginata-naoshi-tachi by Masamitsu (政光).

[Mikaveli]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

No, I mean that this particular description (the wording) is not on any of Jussi’s lists.

Naginata-naoshi-gatana 

 

 

As Jussi says (below), that's not a new description...

 

But it is an example of a 薙刀直し described blade, that's actually a 造り (tsukuri / form of) - unless I was mistaken?

 

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

It was just my mishap that I forgot to mention that most commonly the length is added afterwards by NBTHK, depending on if it is currently wakizashi sized or katana sized

薙刀直し刀

薙刀直し脇指

薙刀直し太刀

 

 

[Mikaveli]

3 hours ago, Natichu said:

Though one wrinkle there - in the item I highlighted earlier, the nakago is described as ubu, but the setsumei makes clear it has been shortened. So while the blade hasn't been shortened or reshaped (and so likely is what it isn't a naoshi) with the nakago moved up, the tail of the tang was cut down. So while ubu, the tang is modified. 

 

Is it possible that is the case here? 

 

I've seen a few examples where a certain level of modification to the nakago is still regarded as ubu. 

 

Usually more minor reshaping - and not o-suriage. So, purely assumption, but I'd be surprised if chopping the long tang of a naginata was still described this way (unless their focus is whether the mune-machi changes etc).

[Jacques]

9 hours ago, Bosco said:

How many sword have you seen/held,?. 

A few hundred. 

[Jacques]

 

Jussi 

 

https://kunishitei.bunka.go.jp/heritage/detail/201/6524

 

It's not the same; the one i shared has a 74.2 nagasa and a 0.9 cm sori

[Jussi Ekholm]

It actually is the same one. It is the only Jūyō Bunkazai long sword by Yoshikage, the other Jūyō Bunkazai item by him is a 1374 dated wakizashi that is owned by Tanzan jinja. Bunkachō website just has an error on their sori measurement, as that is incorrect. Correct sori for this sword is somewhere around 0,9 - 1,0 cm.

 

It is actually surprisingly common that Japanese references have measurements that differ slightly from book to book. While practically few mm in length does not matter at all but when documenting items it drives me crazy if 3 books all have different length or curvature for the item... Of course occasionally there are just incorrect measurements like the one in question here.

[Jacques]

Ok thanks Jussy.

[Franco]

12 hours ago, Jacques said:

How can you say he can reconfigure the shinogi if you don't know how?

 

I can say because I saw the before and after. It doesn't matter that I don't know how. What matters is that this polisher knows how! 

 

Still digging I see. 

[Bosco]

4 hours ago, Jacques said:

A few hundred. 

I doubt it. Any reference ?. 

[Scogg]

Let’s keep it civil, and not allow this to devolve into a battle of egos.
 

Jacques is who he is, and nobody is going to change him. I’ve struggled with him too; but he’s very knowledgable, and I absolutely believe he’s held and studied many good swords, with a far better memory than I will ever have. 
 

We can go back and forth and disagree all we want, so long as we keep focus.

Sincerely, 

-Sam

[Rayhan]

There are quite a few people with connections in Japan to swordsmiths who could tell us how this is achieved and polishers who are also knowledgeable. Perhaps we can ask them? Also, there is plenty of historical text on the subject but in Japanese. I will ask a few connections in Japan for insights and hopefully others here can do the same?

[Mikaveli]

Well, I've just bought a copy of 槍薙刀入門 (Introduction to the Yari and Naginata) - I'm hoping it is introductory level! 😅

[Rayhan]

2 minutes ago, Mikaveli said:

Well, I've just bought a copy of 槍薙刀入門 (Introduction to the Yari and Naginata) - I'm hoping it is introductory level! 😅

Let us know what you find

[Jacques]

Quote

It doesn't matter that I don't know how. What matters is that this polisher knows how! 

The problem is that you can't say the polisher knows if you don't know the process. And yes, the scientific method can be applied anywhere.

[Mikaveli]

2 hours ago, Jacques said:

The problem is that you can't say the polisher knows if you don't know the process. And yes, the scientific method can be applied anywhere.

 

Is there a living polisher that's ever done a naginata naoshi?

 

Otherwise, I'd suggest it's likely just educated guesswork?

[Franco]

6 hours ago, Jacques said:

The problem is that you can't say the polisher knows if you don't know the process. And yes, the scientific method can be applied anywhere.

 

 

Jacques, your problem is that your infinite ego just can't stand that someone knows and understands something that you don't. Especially when you can't figure it out.

 

Secondly, Jacques, I am not so rude a person nor impolite as to be so assertive as to ask and press someone about what is obviously a special talent. I have no right to ask, and neither do you! And if he wanted anyone to know ..... .

Besides, how do you think he did it! Hmm, let's see, maybe he used magic polishing dust and water! Or just maybe; ability + skill + experience + patience + drive + time = Final result.

 

Thirdly, are you now suggesting that perhaps I'm not being truthful, or perhaps that I have a vision problem or I'm blind, or perhaps that I'm too stupid to recognize the change from the old "before" polish to the new "after" polish! Or maybe you're suggesting that as soon as I left the room the shinogi somehow meta-morphed back to its previous distorted state. Now that would be magic indeed!

 

Yes, Jacques. See how ridiculous this thread is becoming as a result of your obstinance and refusal to admit when you're wrong. Further, have you ever stopped to consider that even if someone knew something, why on earth would they share it with someone so brash as you!

 

Good grief!

 

Edited Friday at 09:54 PM by Franco

[Jacques]

Franco 

 

It's not enough to say a polisher can do this - you have to prove it. Facts are facts words are only words... And many naginata naoshi are not true naginata naoshi but only made in the style...

[Franco]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

It's not enough to say a polisher can do this - you have to prove it. Facts are facts words are only words... And many naginata naoshi are not true naginata naoshi but only made in the style...

 

Hmm. It seems that were back to square one. 

 

Apparently, I can't even believe my own eyes any more.

 

I'm going to have to break the bad news to the sword owner that he no longer owns a naginata-naoshi. He'll have to tear up the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon paper, and have Mr. Tanobe's sayagaki removed. He'll then have to tell the polisher that he didn't do what he did. All because Jacques says so.

 

It's just amazing the lengths someone will go to, so as to never admit and accept when they're wrong and mistaken. 

 

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

MLK Jr.