Naginata-naoshi

[Franco]

7 hours ago, Jacques said:

So what ? Is it a proof it is a real naginata naoshi ? No. 

 

Well, Jacques, actually Nagamitsu's double boshi was on a National Treasure "tachi."  Chikakage made this double boshi on the imaged naginata which at present is papered by the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon as a katana -  naginata-naoshi. Mr. Tanobe agrees with that assessment. According to the sword's owner the polisher also agrees with that assessment.   

Real? Real? Don't be stupid.  

Stop digging!

 

Quote

 

Mr. Tanobe's sayagaki (Markus Sesko translation):

 

備前國⻑船近景 但薙⼑直無銘也本阿弥光遜同⼯極朱書有之近景ハ⻑光⾨⼈ト傳フ 本作出来宜敷地刃健ヤカ⽽所傳ハ正シク被⾸肯候 刃⻑貮尺弐⼨壹分有之 于時丙戌暦極⽉中浣 探⼭鍳并誌了「花押」

 

Bizen no Kuni Osafune Chikakage Tadashi naginata-naoshi mumei nari. Hon’ami Kōson dōkō kiwame shusho kore ari. Chikakage wa Nagamitsu monjin to tsutau. Honsaku deki yoroshiku jiba sukoyaka shikamo shoden wa tadashiku shikōsaru sōrō Hachō ni-shaku ni-sun ichi-bu kore ari Toki ni hinoe-inudoshi gokugetsu chūkan Tanzan kangamite narabi ni shirōshite + kaō Osafune Chikakage from Bizen Province

 

[This blade] is a naginata-naoshi and mumei. It bears a red-lacquer attribution by Hon’ami Kōson to this smith. According to tradition, Chikakage was a student of Nagamitsu. This blade is of an excellent deki and its jiba is healthy and its period attribution can be considered as correct. Blade length ~ 66.9 cm Examined and written by Tanzan [Tanobe Michihiro] in the second third of December in the year of the dog of this era (2006) + monogram

 

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. the original image I posted can be clicked on twice to get an enlarged image that shows a full boshi with kaeri. 

 

Edited Monday at 05:31 PM by Franco

[Jacques]

It still doesn't prove anything, I'm still waiting to see a naginata that could keep a kaeri once the naoshi has been practiced. I have the flaw of basing myself on facts, not blabla.

[Franco]

3 minutes ago, Jacques said:

I have the flaw of basing myself on facts

 

De·lu·sion

/dəˈlo͞oZH(ə)n/

noun

1.a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions:

 

[Gakusee]

46 minutes ago, Jacques said:

It still doesn't prove anything, I'm still waiting to see a naginata that could keep a kaeri once the naoshi has been practiced. I have the flaw of basing myself on facts, not blabla.

 

That is all very good. 
 

So, Jacques please explain why the naginata naoshi in the images above further up this thread, with the kaeri retained, are not naginata naoshi? The NBTHK has called them naginata naoshi, so they are such. 
 

[Mikaveli]

I saw a good presentation (on this site I think), that showed the different styles of naginata across different time periods. One thing that was clear as there was a time period where more shallow naginata was preferred and then later on with a much deeper curvature that we all tend to associate with it now. 

 

At least three distinct styles as far as I can recall. Does anyone know the source?

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 

That is all very good. 
 

So, Jacques please explain why the naginata naoshi in the images above further up this thread, with the kaeri retained, are not naginata naoshi? The NBTHK has called them naginata naoshi, so they are such. 
 

I don't know if you understood me correctly (with my bad English it's possible). Once again, there are real naginata naoshi = naginata that have been transformed and swords made like naginata naoshi (but that have never been transformed), the latter with a kaeri. 

A true naginata naoshi. Note that it was during the Nanbokucho period that swords began to be forged in the Naginata naoshi style. 

[Brano]

6 minutes ago, Jacques said:

I don't know if you understood me correctly (with my bad English it's possible). Once again, there are real naginata naoshi = naginata that have been transformed and swords made like naginata naoshi (but that have never been transformed), the latter with a kaeri. 

A true naginata naoshi. Note that it was during the Nanbokucho period that swords began to be forged in the Naginata naoshi style. 

So if I understand you correctly - you claim/think that the above examples of naginata-naoshi with boshi that kaeri has were not modified from naginata, but were made as we see them - correct?
And don't worry - my English is worse than yours and I often use a translator

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is where my huge library comes handy as I have so huge amount of amazing items in my books. I will present here 6 signed items by Bizen Masamitsu (政光). For some reason all of the images were turned 90 degrees but I dont mind that.

 

Now one thing to take into consideration is that there are various types of sugata, and when doing shinsa they most likely go with standard attributions. However there are historical unokubi-zukuri tachi remaining for example even though they are very rare. So it can be possible that even sword identified as formerly naginata it could have been a tachi on extremely rare case. Also as discussed here on the forum the type (長刀) nagatō would be extremely difficult to differentiate from tachi/katana as the blade is very swordlike. So when the tang is cut it will most likely to impossible to tell how long it had originally been.

 

1. Masamitsu Naginata (1362) Jūyō Bijutsuhin, Saga Prefecture Bunkazai in the collection of Saga Prefectural Museum

2. Masamitsu Naginata (1385) Jūyō 20

3. Masamitsu Naginata (1388) Jūyō 11

4. Masamitsu Naoshi (1377) Jūyō 53

5. Masamitsu Naoshi Jūyō 26

6. Masamitsu Naoshi Jūyō 25

 

 

1. Currently this naginata is 61,2cm nagasa with 2,7cm sori. Unfortunately none of books have nakago length for this one. I believe this has been shortened a bit. So originally this would have been little bit longer with longer tang too. From these images you can get little idea that late Nanbokuchō Bizen smiths often signed quite high up on their naginata nakago. Also the very large naginata often have roughly 1:1 scale of nagasa length to nakago. That is not any golden mandatory rule but often 70 cm naginata would have c. 70 cm nakago. Of course there can be variation like 80/60 - 60/80 etc. But you don't see 80 cm naginata blades with originally 30 cm nakago as it would not be that good useful weapon.

 

 

2. Currently this naginata is 57,6 cm with 1,8 sori. The nakago on this is only 19,1 cm. The blade is in original length but nakago on this has been cut down, and also some curvature has been added to nakago in my opinion to make this usable as a sword. I believe originally this naginata would have had a straight tang of c.60 cm. Jacques posted this one earlier in this thread.

 

 

3. This naginata is 50,3 cm and has 1,9 cm curvature. The nakago on this is 51,5 cm. On this naginata both the blade and the tang are in original length.

 

 

4. Blade length on this one is 71,2 cm and sori is 1,7 cm. The tang is 22,4 cm. Unfortunately Jūyō books don't have whole sugata picture and I don't have this particular sword in any other books. NBTHK has classified this one as naginata-naoshi. However as you can see it does have very swordlike blade compared to more typical naginata. As in their opinion this originally was a polearm, I would dare to say this would have been closer to nagatō form of polearm. I am just putting this term out here to differentiate these in online discussion. I still think that polearm type as a form of naginata. It does not really make any difference if you call it nagamaki, nagatō or naginata.

 

 

5. This former naginata has a blade length of 59,8 cm and curvature of 2,4 cm. In current form the tang is 18,4 cm. The blade on this has been shortened a bit, so originally I see this as bit over 60 cm blade with c. 60 cm nakago.

 

 

6. Currently this blade is 49,0 cm with 1,0 cm curvature. Nakago is 14,9 cm. Now there are some interesting things on this one when taking several notes from the 5 above items. Of course at first you see that the blade shape is similar to N.4, swordlike blade with little curvature. Second interesting thing that can be picked up is that the mei has been preserved as orikaeshi-mei. Now when refolding the mei and looking at the location I would think this might have been c. 60 cm polearm blade originally. Of course the tang would have been much longer in length. However the nagatō type does not necessarily have as long tang as the more traditional style naginata when compared to blade length.

 

Hopefully this will give some insight on how I see these things. There is always stuff lost in online discussions, as illustrating the point you are trying to make is difficult.

[Gakusee]

Jacques, again, see below another example of a naginata naoshi by Chogi with full kaeri. It probably never was too flared or with very deep sori. 
 

Juyo Zufu translation below: 

 

 

Designation: December 2, Reiwa 4 (2022)

 

68th Juyō Tōken Designation

 

Important Japanese Sword (Juyō Tōken)

 

Unsigned (attributed to: Den Chōgi / 伝長義)

Type: Katana (originally a naginata-naoshi), one piece

 

 

 

Dimensions (法量 – Hōryō)

• Nagasa (blade length): 68.2 cm

• Sori (curvature): 0.6 cm

• Motohaba (width at base): approx. 3.0 cm

• Sakihaba (width at yokote/point): approx. 2.0 cm

 

 

 

Shape (姿 – Sugata)

 

A naginata-naoshi-zukuri blade that has been suriage (shortened). The blade has a broad mihaba (width), a thick kasane (thickness), shallow sori (curvature), and the blade tapers slightly toward the point. The kissaki (tip) is chūkissaki (medium length), with a slightly extended appearance. The jigane (steel surface) is well-forged, with clear and vibrant midare-utsuri (wavy temper shadow reflections).

 

 

 

Forging (鍛 – Kitae)

 

The hada (grain) is itame-hada (wood grain), well-layered with a prominent surface texture. The jigane is thick with ji-nie (fine crystalline particles), and chikei (dark, sinuous lines in the steel) are vividly present. Midare-utsuri is clearly visible. The overall steel color is slightly dark, and the blade exhibits an abundance of hataraki (activity) such as kinsuji (golden lines) and sunagashi (sweeping streaks of nie), with a variety of lively textures and movements.

 

 

 

Temper Pattern (刃文 – Hamon)

 

In the lower portion of the blade, the hamon is composed of gunome (undulating pattern) mixed with ko-gunome, chōji, and ko-chōji, forming a small, intricate pattern. The nioiguchi (temper line boundary) is soft and misty, with frequent ashi (legs) and yō (leaf-like shapes) appearing within the hamon.

In the upper portion, the hamon shows more variation with wider gunome, open chōji, and angular elements mixed in. Yubashiri (cloud-like nie patches), kinsuji, and sunagashi are frequent and vibrant. The nioiguchi remains slightly subdued, but nie is strong and prominent. This area exhibits features most characteristic of the Sōshū-influenced Bizen (Sōden Bizen) style.

 

 

 

Temper at the Kissaki (帽子 – Bōshi)

 

Rounded komaru shape, with a deep and long kaeri (return of the temper line to the spine).

 

 

 

Tang (茎 – Nakago)

 

The tang is ō-suriage (greatly shortened), with a kurijiri (rounded end). File marks (yasurime) are shallow and in kattesagari (slanted downward toward the back). There is one mekugi-ana (peg hole). The blade is unsigned (mumei).

 

 

 

Explanation (説明)

 

Chōgi (長義) was an active swordsmith in the latter half of the 14th century, during the Nanbokuchō period. He is considered one of the foremost figures of the Sōden Bizen tradition—a fusion style combining elements of the Bizen and Sōshū schools. While his precise origins are not well documented, it is believed that he either trained under or was deeply influenced by Sōshū smiths, possibly through contact with the Kamakura school.

 

His works are renowned for their bold nie-based activity, which often surpasses even other Sōden Bizen smiths like Kanemitsu or Tomonari in intensity. Some of his blades are so strongly Sōshū-influenced that they have historically been mistaken for works by Sōshū smiths like Sadamune.

 

This blade is unsigned but has been attributed to Chōgi based on its workmanship, forging, and tempering style. The jigane is a well-forged itame-hada, with prominent ji-nie and chikei. The hamon combines elements such as gunome, chōji, and angular shapes, along with an active presence of yubashiri, sunagashi, and kinsuji. The upper portion of the hamon, in particular, exhibits vigorous nie and dynamic hataraki, characteristics closely associated with Chōgi’s later-period work.

 

Overall, this is a powerful example of the Sōden Bizen aesthetic, clearly representative of Chōgi’s mature style. The combination of refined construction and dynamic surface activity makes it a highly valuable and culturally significant work, fully meriting its designation as an Important Sword (Juyō Tōken).

[Gakusee]

Another example is this old Kokuho Awataguchi naoshi…..

So, these blades are also considered naginata even if they do not follow the typical flared and deeply curved formula we so closely associate with the typical naginata. 

So, please let us not argue. As we said earlier, in almost all cases of standard naginata, you are right about what you say.
But for the slender, small-sori blades or blades which probably were nagamaki (but now the NBTHK simply calls them naginata naoshi), the kaeri can and has been retained. 
 

 

[Jacques]

Still no physically acceptable explanation 

Token-bijutsu automn 1981 

 

[Jacques]

Quote

A naginata-naoshi-zukuri blade that has been suriage (shortened). 

Naginata naoshi zukuri,  so what ? A katana made in this style will be designated as naginata naoshi zukuri  

Just a point of clarification: no one can know how the naginata was like before the naoshi, and all the existing examples of ubu naginata show that the kaeri would disappear if one were practised. I'm basing myself on facts and nothing else. The examples you show are in no way proof. 

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

no one can know how the naginata was like before the naoshi, and all the existing examples of ubu naginata show that the kaeri would disappear if one were practised. I'm basing myself on facts and nothing else. The examples you show are in no way proof. 

 

Jacques,

You can't say this unless you have reviewed the totality of the evidence base and it is impossible for you to have done so.

[Mikaveli]

Out of interest, where the kaeri is lost during naoshi, how obvious is the shaping on the mune?

 

For example, for a deeply curved naginata to wakizashi, does it expose core steel etc? How is this dealt with?

[Rayhan]

There is a lot of speculation in answering how core steel is addressed but I would think that was taken into consideration before they proceeded with the changing of the blade. Kamakura boshi on Naginata were not even and precise in most cases and then there is always the possibility of saiha on the reshaped area, way too much speculation i think.

[Jacques]

The question that needs to be asked, and that few are asking, is this: How can we tell that a naginata has had a naoshi?  Absolutely nothing, except a boshi identical to hamon and yakitsume.
 

[Rayhan]

@Jacques sir I do love this this thread but now we're pushing into obscurity. It is absolutely obvious how we can tell. Firstly where the tang of a Naginata meets its hamachi and munemachi is different to an intentional made,  exaggerated, katana of Naginata Naoshi shape. The other differential is when we observe the jigane in areas that have been altered and hamon in areas altered (cut/ground down) and again historical records of swords that have had the process conducted.  

 

@Jacques we need data to get into this and that isnt available here. @everyone else start looking deeper i guess, I'm sure our books have answers 

[Mikaveli]

3 hours ago, Jacques said:

The question that needs to be asked, and that few are asking, is this: How can we tell that a naginata has had a naoshi?  Absolutely nothing, except a boshi identical to hamon and yakitsume.
 

 

Universal / absolute rules are few, but I'd like to find a good example.

 

For example, my naginata (Terukado) is signed tachi-mei, whereas for katana etc. he used a conventional katana-mei.

 

The next difference is that his signature is generally much lower on extant naginata, but not so low that all the signature would be lost, if a conventional naginata naoshi were to be created / reworked from one of his blades.

 

So, what I'd assume, is that if a genuine naginata naoshi were made, there'd be at least 3-4 characters left on the tang on the "wrong" side.

 

The only problem is I don't know of any example that follows this logic. But, I'd assume this should be the case for one smith or another (a partial signature remaining, on the opposite side from made-as wakizashi etc). Anyone know of any?

[CSM101]

3 simple ways to reshape a naginata

 

 

[Jacques]

1 minute ago, CSM101 said:

3 simple ways to reshape a naginata

 

 

No, you have tot start from the mune machi and you need a decreasing mihaba. 

[Mikaveli]

2 minutes ago, CSM101 said:

3 simple ways to reshape a naginata

 

For any of those (conceptual) reshaping profiles, are there any examples where we can see evidence of the rework?

 

Particularly (for me) on the mune?

[Jacques]

Quote

my naginata (Terukado)

 

Shinto = off topic

[Jacques]

Quote

The next difference is that his signature is generally much lower on extant naginata, but not so low that all the signature would be lost, if a conventional naginata naoshi were to be created 

There's a misunderstanding of the term naoshi, which refers only to kissaki; for nakago it's suriage. In fact, for a tachi, we should say: nakago suriage and machi-okuri, and for a naginata: naoshi and suriage, but the Japanese love shortcuts.

[CSM101]

Oh,you thought that was meant for you. Sorry, it is for people that want to learn something.

[Scogg]

I imagine it’s frustrating for those of you involved in the discussion - but the back and forth is actually pretty interesting, a learning opportunity for the rest of us 

[Gakusee]

12 minutes ago, Jacques said:

There's a misunderstanding of the term naoshi, which refers only to kissaki; for nakago it's suriage. In fact, for a tachi, we should say: nakago suriage and machi-okuri, and for a naginata: naoshi and suriage, but the Japanese love shortcuts.

 

Well, no, I disagree with this approach and therein lies the entire problem Jacques has with the examples we have added. He believes naoshi only applies to the kissaki modification. 
 

Actually, I concur with Franco that the modification can happen anywhere on the naginata blade. 
 

Naoshi simply means modified or altered. 
 

Therefore,  all our Koto examples are valid naginata naoshi, as the NBTHK has aptly called them. They had been longer, some of them signed etc but had all been nagamaki or naginata (semantics difference due to koshirae usage as per the NBTHK standards, and not as some/many believe, due to shale or grooves or dimensions). 

[Mikaveli]

28 minutes ago, Jacques said:

 

Shinto = off topic

 

Not really relevant - the example holds (unless there are no signed koto blades...).

 

17 minutes ago, Jacques said:

There's a misunderstanding of the term naoshi, which refers only to kissaki; for nakago it's suriage. In fact, for a tachi, we should say: nakago suriage and machi-okuri, and for a naginata: naoshi and suriage, but the Japanese love shortcuts.

 

Not really, usage of the term, following convention doesn't suggest the meaning of the term is lost.

 

When (here) we talk about naoshi, the suriage is generally implied. If it wasn't suriage, most would still consider it a naginata (or even nagamaki) and wouldn't notice any reshaping.

[Mikaveli]

2 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

Naoshi simply means modified or altered. 

Yes, ish.

 

In direct translation it can also mean repair or correction - but in sword parlance, that's the implication.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Mikaveli said:

Yes, ish.

 

In direct translation it can also mean repair or correction - but in sword parlance, that's the implication.

Yes, by the way, I have also checked the literal translation. We are however not talking about repairing broken plates or chipped kettle here. 

So, in this context of naginata / nagamaki,  it means altered or modified. 
 

Anyway, this will be my last post in this thread as the topic has been exhausted. Numerous Koto examples with retained kaeri have been added of what the NBTHK calls naginata naoshi. 
 

Lastly, herein an example of a short naginata and I have illustrated how it can be modified further. Imagine a significantly longer Nanbokucho blade of eg 100cm and you can understand how they naoshi-ed it. 
 

It is den Fukuoka Ichimonji Naganori but shortened by one of the Sukesada. 

[Jacques]

Michael stop nonsenses please 

 

Quote

A naginata-naoshi-zukuri blade that has been suriage (shortened)

Den Choji description....