Nihonto Collecting Guide

[Brian]

11 hours ago, O-Yumi said:

For some reason I can't download as a PDF? Is there some other way I can get it?

Nothing this side preventing it, can only be your pc. More details. Cell or pc? Use a pc. What error are you getting? Right click and save link as...?

[Matsunoki]

9 hours ago, Jacques said:

An example (i choose it for a reason) : 

Couldn’t find anything about Japanese swords in it, had to read it twice just to make sure……..nor anything that would specifically help collectors and GUIDE them…..and after all, that is what we are talking about here.

To create something aimed at helping others requires considerable effort and is to be commended.

Pointless non-constructive criticism of a GUIDE is pretty mean-spirited, extremely negative, and utterly unhelpful. 
So I’ll add my thanks to you Kirill, along with all the others who appreciate what you’ve done and who will doubtless find it utterly helpful.

 

[Lukrez]

This is an excellent contribution, very useful —thank you for sharing it!

 

Really holds up a mirror—had to laugh more than once! I've seen quite a few experienced collectors walk away disillusioned, saying something like, "Well, in the end, it's just steel..."

 

 

Looking forward to seeing more from you!

 

 

[Bosco]

12 hours ago, Jacques said:

I've been asked to write an article a few times, and I've always refused because I don't think I'm legitimate enough to do so. Anyone can write anything, but that doesn't make it a valid reference.

An example (i choose it for a reason) : 

https://www.skyfall.fr/wp-content/2016/05/Earth-Science-Reviews_FG_2016-.pdf

Dear Jacques,

 
Out of all the members here. I found that you are the most unhelpful person. Most of the time you dropped a short comment and it’s automatically a statement, you wont let anyone have an opinion. Guess what ? Look like you are part of the climate change group but because of this attitude I will make sure my team let their trucks run longer than usual to contribute to that climate change. 
 

No wonder people doesn’t want to listen to climate activists.

[Jacques]

Quote

you wont let anyone have an opinion. 

An opinion is just that, an opinion. What bothers me is when someone tries to pass it off as established fact. I'm a scientist and I know from experience that not all opinions are equal. Kirill's opinion about NBTHK isn't worth a cent. I'd love to dismantle every one of his pseudo-arguments, but I'm prevented from doing so by Brandolini's law...Just an example:  Nagayama's book is for complete beginners, not for people who already have some knowledge...

 

About the article I linked, it's full of nonsense, but I know that no one here has the ability to see it - it's the same for Kirill's “paper”... 

[Lukrez]

Anyone who is exposed to a growing flood of contradictory information will, sooner or later, have to begin thinking for themselves. In this context, the internet is one of the most important tools for the further development of human intelligence.

Of course, randomized controlled trials would be ideal, but as long as they are not available, everyone should be allowed to rely on their natural human common sense.

It is clear that a large part of Rivkin's observations are representative of a majority experience—and we can all benefit from that.

 

Please continue sharing all viewpoints.

[Bosco]

53 minutes ago, Jacques said:

An opinion is just that, an opinion. What bothers me is when someone tries to pass it off as established fact. I'm a scientist and I know from experience that not all opinions are equal. Kirill's opinion about NBTHK isn't worth a cent. I'd love to dismantle every one of his pseudo-arguments, but I'm prevented from doing so by Brandolini's law...Just an example:  Nagayama's book is for complete beginners, not for people who already have some knowledge...

 

About the article I linked, it's full of nonsense, but I know that no one here has the ability to see it - it's the same for Kirill's “paper”... 

 

Do you have a reference for this ?. And i want the reference for that reference as well. Whatever you learn to become a scientist do you back track to the beginning for reference ?. 
 

Let me ask the an apple for the reference. 

[CSM101]

1 hour ago, Jacques said:

Nagayama's book is for complete beginners, not for people who already have some knowledge...

Yes and No. Because Token Kantei Dokuhon was written for Japanese beginners. As non-Japanese you need some basics and you have to read it again and again.  So Yes, it is for the advanced collector.

 

 

What I miss are essentials in collecting when it comes to books. And I think that the english Token Bijutsu belong in every good collection.

 

Koto Taikan, Shinto Taikan, ShinShito Taikan, Soshu Den Meisaku Shu, Meihin Katanaezu Shusei, Nihonto Shubi is up to you. Sano Art Museum books, books from the NBTHK, whatever...

 

 

 

And never forget Dunning-Kruger.

[Jacques]

Quote

the internet is one of the most important tools for the further development of human intelligence.

We have a very good example with X. Internet is a good tool if you know how to sort... And sorting requires knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, I know absolutely nothing about medicine, pharmacy or aeronautics, so I trust those who do and i keep my loud mouth closed on this subjects 

[Rivkin]

The point of literature is an interesting one. My goal was to keep the list basic and include only the most common publications. Currently I seldom open any of those because my interests are very specific, but to begin with specific would be strange. Nakayama's book is advanced because its concise. To a beginner its confusing because a beginner does not have a mental image of what these words might mean. Especially since same words mean different things depending on a period, smith, etc.. Not too many useful pictures, which as a nihonto photographer I think is the bane of most books. To an advanced collector its not that useful since there are more detailed and in depth volumes for each subject. There is a narrow timeframe when its of substantial value, but its a well known book and not putting it there would be strange.

By the same token I would not have mentioned Yumoto's book if it was not still commonly recommended in the US. And it was not bad at the time, but then again Yamanaka's newsletter is at a different level and is accessible to a beginner.

Every book I currently read or consult would be difficult to place within what is essentially a general document. In a chapter on Yamato they would be appropriated, but otherwise it would just confuse people.

I would add Token Bijutsu though. It is underappreciated by beginners. Maybe koto and shinto taikan.

Arrogantly enough I did not like Soshu Den Meisaku. Its traditional and Masamune centric.

[Gakusee]

5 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

The point of literature is an interesting one. My goal was to keep the list basic and include only the most common publications. Currently I seldom open any of those because my interests are very specific, but to begin with specific would be strange. Nakayama's book is advanced because its concise. To a beginner its confusing because a beginner does not have a mental image of what these words might mean. Especially since same words mean different things depending on a period, smith, etc.. Not too many useful pictures, which as a nihonto photographer I think is the bane of most books. To an advanced collector its not that useful since there are more detailed and in depth volumes for each subject. There is a narrow timeframe when its of substantial value, but its a well known book and not putting it there would be strange.

By the same token I would not have mentioned Yumoto's book if it was not still commonly recommended in the US. And it was not bad at the time, but then again Yamanaka's newsletter is at a different level and is accessible to a beginner.

Every book I currently read or consult would be difficult to place within what is essentially a general document. In a chapter on Yamato they would be appropriated, but otherwise it would just confuse people.

I would add Token Bijutsu though. It is underappreciated by beginners. Maybe koto and shinto taikan.

Arrogantly enough I did not like Soshu Den Meisaku. Its traditional and Masamune centric.

 

Kiril, one other source not too widely known or appreciated is Tanobe sensei’s Gokaden series. Now that Markus has started translating the entire series and several of the books are out or to be out, it should form an indispensable part of any student’s library. I have both the Japanese versions and some English translations and find them rather useful. 

[Lukrez]

54 minutes ago, Jacques said:

We have a very good example with X. Internet is a good tool if you know how to sort... And sorting requires knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, I know absolutely nothing about medicine, pharmacy or aeronautics, so I trust those who do and i keep my loud mouth closed on this subjects 

 

Totally fine. However, I personally prefer a less rigid approach—one that encourages trusting experts less, speaking up, asking questions, and actively engaging in dialogue. As a neuroscientist, I always advise my patients to do the same. Especially in medicine, it’s striking how error-prone the human factor is—particularly among so-called experts. 

 

In recent years, “science” has unfortunately done itself a disservice and lost a lot of public trust. It’s more important than ever to encourage open exchange. That said, a deep debate between radical objectivism and radical constructivism doesn’t really belong here. 

 

For those interested, I recommend the book The Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact* by Ludwik Fleck. It’s a great resource for developing critical thinking—especially when it comes to experts.

 

Now, this might earn me some criticism, but nihonto—like any other art form—is more of a subjective or socio-cultural construct than a science. Correct me If I am wrong.

 

[scrotty]

Beautifully written Kirill, a pleasure to read. 

[Jacques]

Quote

Nakayama's book is advanced because its concise

We definitely don't have the same approach to this book. For me, it's too general and, above all, contains a large section devoted to the basic characteristics of swords: zukuri, kissaki, nakago jiri,  yasurime etc. etc. Someone who already has some knowledge should be comfortable with all these terms, and I've often found that this wasn't the case for many.

[Gakusee]

11 minutes ago, Jacques said:

We definitely don't have the same approach to this book. For me, it's too general and, above all, contains a large section devoted to the basic characteristics of swords: zukuri, kissaki, nakago jiri,  yasurime etc. etc. Someone who already has some knowledge should be comfortable with all these terms, and I've often found that this wasn't the case for many.

 

But then, it also has a wealth of information about specific schools characteristics, smith characteristics and a lot of detail which will lead to successful kantei, etc.

 

The second half of the book goes into intermediate level knowledge, while the beginning is indeed more introductory and basic. 

[Jacques]

Quote

it also has a wealth of information about specific schools characteristics, smith characteristics

He gives only the broad outlines, taking no account of variations in work or the differences that can be observed between generations. For example, he says that the hada of the Rai school is made of ko-mokume; in fact, the hada of this school is a ko-itame very often mixed with ko-mokume.

Let me be clear, I'm not treating this subject lightly, it's for me a subject to be studied as seriously as physics or anthropology. That's probably what sets me apart from most of the people who frequent this forum.

 

 

[Gakusee]

40 minutes ago, Jacques said:

He gives only the broad outlines, taking no account of variations in work or the differences that can be observed between generations. For example, he says that the hada of the Rai school is made of ko-mokume; in fact, the hada of this school is a ko-itame very often mixed with ko-mokume.

Let me be clear, I'm not treating this subject lightly, it's for me a subject to be studied as seriously as physics or anthropology. That's probably what sets me apart from most of the people who frequent this forum.

 

 

 

You are right, Jacques, and that is why I qualified the second part of the book as intermediate and not advanced. To the advanced student / collector, this book could seem not detailed or thorough enough. But the breadth is extensive and the subjects covered also wide. 
Regarding hada, yes, it will be nearly impossible for hada to be only mokume. Very often there are degrees and gradations of which one predominates - mokume or itame. More often than not, it is a mix of both and one needs to focus on which one is dominant.  

[Kotetsu1959]

     Thank you for doing the implicitly necessary suffering attendant to writing this useful work, and so perhaps saving us a portion Dr. Rivkin. There is information here that is of benefit to most all of us!

 

[Rivkin]

I wonder if there is actually an Edo period's Honami letter or certificate identifying Rai blade's hada as itame and not ko mokume...

[Mark S.]

5 hours ago, Jacques said:

 

 

That's probably what sets me apart from most of the people who frequent this forum.

 

 

Nope… that’s not it… 

[Schneeds]

Personally, as a novice collector and English speaker, I really appreciate efforts like this by our members. Fundamentals are always valuable and no one is forcing anyone to read anything.  

[nulldevice]

17 hours ago, Rivkin said:

I wonder if there is actually an Edo period's Honami letter or certificate identifying Rai blade's hada as itame and not ko mokume...

Might be a question for Markus as he's been translating Honma's Appraisal diary so he has been working on a first-hand account translation and might have ran across it. 

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, nulldevice said:

Might be a question for Markus as he's been translating Honma's Appraisal diary so he has been working on a first-hand account translation and might have ran across it. 

Terminology is extremely subjective and frankly I never saw arguing about it evolving into anything productive, but there is an interesting point that Honami in Edo period used somewhat different vocabulary and reference points.

In a such vast field as nihonto I always fear I am missing some blade or some text and often I do, especially when "forum-speaking", so I was hoping to get corrected, but...

I am not aware of Edo period Honami judgement identifying hada of Rai blade as itame.  I knew plenty of people who would be very abrasive if "itame" is applied in this case.

For myself I don't care either way. Rai hada needs to be seen. Important point is how it differs from Awataguchi hada, not whether its right to follow that or this lineage's vocabluary.

[Markus]

5 hours ago, nulldevice said:

Might be a question for Markus as he's been translating Honma's Appraisal diary so he has been working on a first-hand account translation and might have ran across it. 

 

I don't remember ever seeing an Edo period Hon'ami document that addresses details like such. Only entering the Meiji era, and then we already get overlapping/contradicting terminology.

 

@Rivkin Hi Kirill on this occasion, long time no see. Downloaded your guide and eagerly read it the other day. Very good! 

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Markus said:

 

I don't remember ever seeing an Edo period Hon'ami document that addresses details like such. Only entering the Meiji era, and then we already get overlapping/contradicting terminology.

 

@Rivkin Hi Kirill on this occasion, long time no see. Downloaded your guide and eagerly read it the other day. Very good! 

Thanks a lot, hope we'll get together at a show or something...

[Benjamin]

Thank you very much Kirill, I read it and learned lot of things.

 

By the way I think publishing without reference is an exercise of bravery that suit you. It allow you to point the unsaid we will never read elsewhere. Very usefull, and great complement to other forms of reading.

 

Made me think I will stay beginner for a long time  

 

 

On 4/15/2025 at 10:23 PM, Jacques said:

I've been asked to write an article a few times, and I've always refused because I don't think I'm legitimate enough to do so.

On 4/16/2025 at 12:05 PM, Jacques said:

I'm a scientist

On 4/15/2025 at 9:32 AM, Jacques said:

difference between a real specialist and a self-proclaimed expert

 

[Hoshi]

Open debate is wonderful indeed. 
 

The state of knowledge in nihonto evolves over the years and I am thankful for this. 
 

The sources that I have found to be the most transformative in my knowledge: 

 

Kanto Hibisho

Gokaden series

Token Bijutsu Meihin 

Extracts from Juyo and Tokuju Zufu 

Darcy’s posts on NMB, his site, blog, and lessons. 

Plenty of Tanobe sayagaki 

 

Especially, the combination of all of these. 

 

if future me was speaking to past me, I would recommend skipping a few of the generalist, picture-poor treaties that are cited so often.

[Rayhan]

It has been many years but I think there is a disconnect in information and important translated information that is held quietly between a select few. I am one of those guilty parties, if @Brian was open to it i would very much like to pass all my translated Juyo documents, edo period documents and many other acquired articles for him to post on the site but we are talking many gigabytes of data... no idea how to make that work and there is a time consuming element to it. @Brian let me know. 

[Brian]

I'd be not only happy to do it, but grateful for the info. Can either transfer via email, or use one of the filesharing sites. I can research some options if you like @Rayhan
As far as the space, if necessary I'll take more hosting space from my hosts and happy to compile into documents if needed. Whatever works for you, consider me in. Thanks for the offer, I think we'd all benefit greatly.

 

[Rayhan]

Ok so @Brian much to horror of the secretive society I will begin sending you everything. 

 

Please email me your current mailing address so I can start, unless it is still the same as before?