Trustworthiness of sellers on yahoo Japan

[JeanEB]

I've been trying to find koto tachis to buy through yahoo JP for a little while, especially pre-Nambokucho. I noticed that some sellers seem to repeatedly sell early-mid kamakura blades, with a beautiful sugata, ko-kissaki and a believable nakago, even though usually those are unpapered...

 

Here are some examples by two different sellers

https://www.jauce.com/auction/v1179858688

https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1179590637

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1176902530

 

now I imagine those are part of the "too good to be true" auctions, where if you end up paying <1M yen, you get what you pay for. However, but I just don't see where the catch is, beyond unauthentified mei (which are probably gimei). Are those sellers reputed to sell altered blades? fake aged nakagos or welded on nakagos? I would imagine any near-ubu mumei blade from that period would sell for much more due to age alone

 

Appreciate any insight

 

 

[Rivkin]

2 are dead Muromachi blades and possibly saiha with crazy signatures. One is interesting ("ko-Bizen"), however utsuri possibly was acid accented. Certainly was submitted for modern papers, got something lesser as appraisal. The question is how much lesser? Still can be an interesting blade, but commercially is not viable.

[Rawa]

What you mean by "dead swords"?

[lonely panet]

ko bizen tomonori hahahhahahahahahahhhahahahahahahhahaha on jauce hahahhaha

[Rawa]

Forgery?

[Rivkin]

3 hours ago, Rawa said:

What you mean by "dead swords"?

Saiha, polished to the end or born ultra-deficient.

Signatures were done relatively not long ago and the objects chosen for "improvement" were of near zero value.

[JeanEB]

Hi Kirill, thanks for the explanation. How do you tell the blade are saiha on these pictures? is it from the large sori? 

[Rivkin]

Large, uneven sori, hada devoid of activity except a few large laminations, dull suguha or notare based hamon - 95% of saiha looks this way. 

[Hoshi]

Dear Jeb, 

 

As you wisely put it, If it is too good to be true, chances are, it is. 

 

Sanjo Munechika...

Ko-Bizen Tomonari...

 

For onlookers, beware the lure of the Sirens of Greed. 

 

"Come here...gold, I offer you gold...at the price of lead..." 

 

"Priceless treasures...that only YOU could find...come, come closer, take the gold..." 

 

At best, when you wake up from the drunken, greed-fueled fever, you will realize it was lead all along. You will put your mistakes behind, cut your losses, and gaze upon the steep path of learning ahead, and engage with it in earnest, and with passion. A financial hangover, a blunder on the path.  

 

At worst, you will succumb to pride, and convince yourself of your judgement, that you truly, maybe, have found gold at the price of lead.

 

There you will begin your descent into Nihonto Hell. A place antithetical to knowledge, a path of self-deception with only ruin ahead. You will work to convince yourself that a cabal of dark-hooded "experts" have elected themselves above you, for their own gain, to deny your prize. A conspiracy to deny your worth. You will preach, and convince a flock of resentful souls of their own righteousness, and carry their cause. You will fight tooth and nail to spread the immaculate truth, to take down the cabal, and perhaps even setup your own booth to peddle your treasures to followers in the process.   

 

Or you may emerge from this fever dream in the Limbo of Nihonto: Relativism. "Whatever"

 

There are no superior sword, there is no excellence, no art. It is all in the eye of the observer. Nothing matters. There is no up, there is no down. There are only perceptions. There are only opinions, and they all matter the same. Lead is gold, to me, and therefore it is true, by virtue of being my "lived experience". 

 

Beware out there. 

[Rawa]

Yeah. Ofcourse buying forgery is bad. But what about buying worn out pieces? As long as you buy genuine piece, even if it have kizu, for me its worthy. Somebody put a lot of effort to make it. It still should be cherished.

Im a freshmen in this topic. Started 15 years ago and had to drop it due to rl overworking. As long as I dn't overpay much it's fine for me.

What my descendants would do with all I gather I dn't care. I won't be around then.

[Robert S]

4 hours ago, Rawa said:

Yeah. Ofcourse buying forgery is bad. But what about buying worn out pieces? As long as you buy genuine piece, even if it have kizu, for me its worthy. Somebody put a lot of effort to make it. It still should be cherished.

Im a freshmen in this topic. Started 15 years ago and had to drop it due to rl overworking. As long as I dn't overpay much it's fine for me.

What my descendants would do with all I gather I dn't care. I won't be around then.

I agree in principle, but the price truly has to reflect that it is only good as a study piece, and you likely won't get even your small amount of money back.  I bought one recently for $100, because I wanted to learn about what a truly worn out blade looks like ... which was probably about the right price :-)

[Bosco]

5 hours ago, Rawa said:

Yeah. Ofcourse buying forgery is bad. But what about buying worn out pieces? As long as you buy genuine piece, even if it have kizu, for me its worthy. Somebody put a lot of effort to make it. It still should be cherished.

Im a freshmen in this topic. Started 15 years ago and had to drop it due to rl overworking. As long as I dn't overpay much it's fine for me.

What my descendants would do with all I gather I dn't care. I won't be around then.

I agree on this, I have seen many members here too focus on the condition of the blade this and that. But they forgot sometimes it’s an 700 years old blade … it’s an antique. I love the history and things the sword witnessed throughout the years. To me it’s has a soul. 

[JeanEB]

Robert I'm kind of curious where you can find well made, old (kamakura/nanbo) for a few hundred bucks! I'd be honest, for that price, with a decent polish, that's unbeatable value even if only to be a study piece!

[Robert S]

7 minutes ago, JeanEB said:

Robert I'm kind of curious where you can find well made, old (kamakura/nanbo) for a few hundred bucks! I'd be honest, for that price, with a decent polish, that's unbeatable value even if only to be a study piece!

JEB:  At this point, I have no certainty that the very worn out wakizashi that I bought is that old, although it has certainly seen a lot of polishing, which says something to its age. Given that it looks likely that it was made as a wakizashi, I doubt it's kamakura.  I bought it on e-bay, and the polish was not decent as bought :-)  In fact, it will probably never be able to be brought back up to decent polish overall, as it is already down to the core metal in one spot, and there is some corrosion damage, which I would be reluctant to have polished out, as it would probably reveal more core metal.  But it is possible to see some interesting details - what looks likely to be battle damage, extensive Jinie, and the barest remains of a sugaha hamon.  This is truly an exercise in trying to understand the smith's methods and intentions, and the impacts of forging and hardening on the metal at some depth within the blade, given that so much has been polished away - more like nihonto archaeology than nihonto preservation :-).  I'll post some photos when I get time to do the photography.

[Rawa]

Nice. Give some photos.

[JeanEB]

I think the same seller I initially mentioned came out recently with a surprising item, a Juyo Kanenaga tachi. 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/u1181923282

 

Now there's always a concern about the blade truly being the one mentioned in the papers vs a fake (see recent sadamune auction), but if it is a fake, I truly don't see it. maybe some minuscule difference in the boshi compared to the oshigata but that's it...

 

wonder how high this one will go

[Bosco]

Some of them are actual dealer as well. So not all bad. I bought 2 from yahoo auction. One with old green paper and other one with current NBTHK paper. The Sukesada with current paper is a big win. My broker even wants to buy the blade off me. 
 

So not all bad, maybe go with the one that has paper just to be safe.